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-   -   SSL And Maximizer (https://www.propellerheads.se/forum/showthread.php?t=137172)

mind2069 2011-02-26 21:24

SSL And Maximizer
 
Hi

How come with all level and faders set to 0db (triple checked them all), I ajust the signal to be at 0 db on the ssl (first red light comes on sometimes) the vu meter on the maximezer is between -8 and -6. and on peak between - 6 and -4.

If I Set the maximizer with a slight limiting at 0 db (4ms look ahead, fast attack release) the SSL shows a +8.

With audio tracks in another project, I have maximizer coming out at 0 db and showing 0 db on the SSL.

With another synth I have maximizer coming out at 0 db and showing +10 db on the SSL.

wich is the "real" 0 db Maximizer or SSL.

Bruiser1 2011-02-27 21:31

I'm just guessing at this, but I suspect that the frequecies are then adding up on top of each other once they've been through you maximizers, thus the volume increases. Try sidechaining the devices?????

mind2069 2011-02-27 22:12

Thats not it, depending on the instrument (all faders a 0 db) what comes out at 0 db from the maximixzer does not come in at 0db on the SSL channel (not main meter), as I mentioned sometimes theres a 8 db difference.

ProfessaKaos 2011-02-28 03:03

post a link to an example file so we can see what you are talking about. I'm sure its something quite simple that can be easily solved.

Benedict 2011-02-28 03:18

I am guessing you don't realize that your meters are showing RMS + Peak instead of just Peak. Click the option button on the Master to alter the way the meters work and then I think your problem will be solved.

Peak is easier to use in the short term but RMS + Peak is superior overall hence it being default.

:)

mind2069 2011-03-02 01:27

1 Attachment(s)
Ok heres the zip in the attachment

The maximizer is showing
peak : 0
vu : -2

SSL
peak : -8
vu : +4

Am I missing something

selig 2011-03-02 07:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by mind2069 (Post 847183)
Ok heres the zip in the attachment

The maximizer is showing
peak : 0
vu : -2

SSL
peak : -8
vu : +4

Am I missing something

When playing your file I get the following:
Maximizer: VU from -5 to -2 (not very steady), PEAK 0
SSL Big Meter: VU-8, PEAK -1*

I think you were reading the wrong row on the meter, plus you probably have the VU offset 'on', which is allowing you to read a POSITIVE value (which normally would indicate clipping!). The VU offset is 'display only' and does not change the meter display in any way.

*First thing to note in your example is that you only have to raise the Maximizer Output level by 0.2 dB to get the Peak levels to match. This means that the Peak levels are actually very close, and are only off by less than 0.2 dB! But the VU levels are indeed much different, and I'm not sure why. That being said, if you use a sine wave for your comparison, they will read almost identical. But for other waveforms, not so much so. ;-)

I've never noticed this before because I never use the Maximizer's meter set to VU level (it's a PEAK LIMITER after all!). VU is meaningless when you're trying to prevent your peaks from clipping, which is job number one for the Maximizer. :-)

I trust the Big Meter's VU mode (and therefore also the "VU + PEAK" mode), as it accurately shows VU vs PEAK on waveforms such as Sine, Square, and Triangle. The difference between Peak and Average level (aka, the Crest Factor) is known for these waveforms, and can be confirmed by using the Big Meter. The Crest Factor for a Sine wave is 3.01 dB, for a Square wave it's 0 dB and for a Triangle and Sawtooth wave it's 4.5 dB. You can easily see these values using Thor to generate raw waveforms, and viewing the level on the Big Meter in VU-PEAK mode.

As an example
Use a Thor to play a sine wave, and set the level (on the Thor or the Mixer - doesn't matter where!) so that the peak is just hitting 0 dB one the Big Meter in VU + PEAK mode (removing any VU offset). Note that the VU level is -3 dB. :-)

mind2069 2011-03-02 13:24

Well I use the limiter for peak, but my example was to show the difference in the meters, it should be exactly the same regardeless of the waveform (am I correct), I had some thor patches showing a 6 to 8 db difference (dont remeber wich).

The reason I am talking about this is that I was using the limiter at 0 peak and the ssl was clipping.

"Maximizer Output level by 0.2 dB" : that was a mistake, I messed around and should of taken it back to 0 but 0.2 is not much of a difference with 6db differences.

selig 2011-03-02 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by mind2069 (Post 847242)
Well I use the limiter for peak, but my example was to show the difference in the meters, it should be exactly the same regardeless of the waveform (am I correct), I had some thor patches showing a 6 to 8 db difference (dont remeber wich).

The reason I am talking about this is that I was using the limiter at 0 peak and the ssl was clipping.

"Maximizer Output level by 0.2 dB" : that was a mistake, I messed around and should of taken it back to 0 but 0.2 is not much of a difference with 6db differences.

Maybe you missunderstood me - the 0.2 dB was the ACTUAL difference between the two meters in PEAK mode. It LOOKED like they were 1 dB off from each other, but since it only took a level increase of 0.2 dB to allow both peak meters to read exactly the same then logically it means that there was only 0.2 dB difference (not 1 dB). In other words, the Peak meters read correctly (within 0.2 dB!).

I don't know why the VU meters are different (or why anyone would need to see VU on a peak limiter)! ;-)

With the Maximizer's output set to 0 dB (and lookahead, fast attack) there is no way to get the SSL meter to peak. I've tried many times and can't get the behavior you describe.

The meter that matters in regards to clipping is the main meter, and it is accurate. Since you can't clip anywhere except for the main outputs, this is all the 'precision' metering you need. If the main meters say 'clipping', you are clipping no matter what the meters on the Maximizer say. You can set the Maximizer VERY precisely using the main meters (especially the Big meter), and not as precisely with the Maximizer's meters.

So in conclusion, don't trust the Maximizer's meters - you can be VERY precise with level without ever even looking at the meters in the Maximizer!

But great catch finding the 'bug' in the Maximizer's VU meters!


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