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-   -   Kong layering problem... (https://www.propellerheads.se/forum/showthread.php?t=151565)

Egoadsr 2011-12-13 18:28

Kong layering problem...
 
Hello, i already notice this issue before, but now i've made an example to prrove what i say.

Here : http://www.megaupload.com/?d=MQM1R8TG for a zip file or here : http://www.megaupload.com/?d=8JIH1V15 for the .reason file.

You can download a Reason 6 project, with only one Kong Device :

On this Kong, 4 pads with the same Bass drum sound.

Pad 1 and pad 5 ( named resp BD1 Link grp and BD2 Link grp ) linked with Mute Group "D"

Pad 2 and pad 6 ( named DB Gatein->Gateout and BD2 Gatein->Gateout ) linked with the backpanel gate in/out connectors.

Personnaly, i think that the 1st layer Pad1 and Pad5 ( play it by click only on Pad1 )act as expected, the two sound are in sync, no phasing problems. But when i click on the Pad2 to play Pad2 and Pad6 simultaneously, the output isn't the same, there is something wrong, the sound is "ugly" there is a sort of phasing problem, strange random high pitch noise...

Djstarski 2011-12-13 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Egoadsr (Post 972722)
Hello, i already notice this issue before, but now i've made an example to prrove what i say.

Here : http://www.megaupload.com/?d=MQM1R8TG for a zip file or here : http://www.megaupload.com/?d=8JIH1V15 for the .reason file.

You can download a Reason 6 project, with only one Kong Device :

On this Kong, 4 pads with the same Bass drum sound.

Pad 1 and pad 5 ( named resp BD1 Link grp and BD2 Link grp ) linked with Mute Group "D"

Pad 2 and pad 6 ( named DB Gatein->Gateout and BD2 Gatein->Gateout ) linked with the backpanel gate in/out connectors.

Personnaly, i think that the 1st layer Pad1 and Pad5 ( play it by click only on Pad1 )act as expected, the two sound are in sync, no phasing problems. But when i click on the Pad2 to play Pad2 and Pad6 simultaneously, the output isn't the same, there is something wrong, the sound is "ugly" there is a sort of phasing problem, strange random high pitch noise...

pads 2 and 6 have the same sample , so you will get a phase problem . where pads 1 and 5 are different .

selig 2011-12-14 02:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Egoadsr (Post 972722)
Hello, i already notice this issue before, but now i've made an example to prrove what i say.

Here : http://www.megaupload.com/?d=MQM1R8TG for a zip file or here : http://www.megaupload.com/?d=8JIH1V15 for the .reason file.

You can download a Reason 6 project, with only one Kong Device :

On this Kong, 4 pads with the same Bass drum sound.

Pad 1 and pad 5 ( named resp BD1 Link grp and BD2 Link grp ) linked with Mute Group "D"

Pad 2 and pad 6 ( named DB Gatein->Gateout and BD2 Gatein->Gateout ) linked with the backpanel gate in/out connectors.

Personnaly, i think that the 1st layer Pad1 and Pad5 ( play it by click only on Pad1 )act as expected, the two sound are in sync, no phasing problems. But when i click on the Pad2 to play Pad2 and Pad6 simultaneously, the output isn't the same, there is something wrong, the sound is "ugly" there is a sort of phasing problem, strange random high pitch noise...

The CV outs have latency (64 samples, I believe) that prevents them from trigging in perfect sync. This is a known issue, and is probably why there is the other option to do these sorts of things. :-)

Egoadsr 2011-12-14 09:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Djstarski (Post 972775)
pads 2 and 6 have the same sample , so you will get a phase problem . where pads 1 and 5 are different .

Pads 1, 2, 5, 6 got the exactly same sample.

Egoadsr 2011-12-14 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by selig (Post 972857)
The CV outs have latency (64 samples, I believe) that prevents them from trigging in perfect sync. This is a known issue, and is probably why there is the other option to do these sorts of things. :-)

But why doesn't this happen with Redrum ?
If that was a fixed latency, the sound must be the same when clicking on the Pad2 ( Pad2 + Pad6 trigger ) everytimes, here, there is a random phase cancellation evereytime you click on Pad2
For a drum machine, to have random latency issue, is a bit anoying, or like you say the Gate out Gate in are not designed for Bass Drum, with give the result of some prout krot prouch brout

Reason1O1 2011-12-14 16:21

Here's your workaround:

Create 3 Kong devices (A, B, and C),
Put sample 1 on Kong A Pad 1
Put sample 2 on Kong B Pad 1
Send Kong C Pad 1 CV gate out through a splitter into Kong A Pad 1 CV gate in and Kong B Pad 1 CV gate in.

Now use Kong C to trigger both samples at the same time. Should not get phasing issues because they're being triggered simultaneously. If what Selig says is right (and he often is), then sending gate cv from one pad to another in the same Kong device creates latency (though I'm surprised by this). So put them in separate Kong devices and trigger them at the same time. Or use the "Link Groups" in Kong. But then you only have 3 groups from which to select (I hate limitations like that).

Do this for as many pads/samples as you like.

Shake, stir, and spit out a song.

Cheers.

selig 2011-12-14 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhiSequence (Post 973018)
Here's your workaround:

Create 3 Kong devices (A, B, and C),
Put sample 1 on Kong A Pad 1
Put sample 2 on Kong B Pad 1
Send Kong C Pad 1 CV gate out through a splitter into Kong A Pad 1 CV gate in and Kong B Pad 1 CV gate in.

Now use Kong C to trigger both samples at the same time. Should not get phasing issues because they're being triggered simultaneously. If what Selig says is right (and he often is), then sending gate cv from one pad to another in the same Kong device creates latency (though I'm surprised by this).

If you're at your computer, it takes about 30 seconds to confirm this yourself (yes, I tested it myself before I posted)! ;-)

I really HOPE folks aren't just taking my word for stuff around here, and I HIGHLY encourage everyone to find this stuff out for themselves (it's easy to do!) - I'm FAR from perfect. ;-)

BTW Rob, for some reason I though it was YOU that discovered this… :-)

BTW, there seems to be a small bug here that sometimes varies the CV latency between (I believe) one and two clocks (1 CV Clock = 64 samples), so that would explain the variance between the hits. There was a thread on this a while back that covered it all in detail, IIRC.

Reason1O1 2011-12-14 17:09

Selig,
If it was me that discovered this, then cool. I forgot. If not, sorry for taking the credit. lol. But more to the point, the workaround I offered should get around this issue, and also expand the number of "links" you can create within just a single Kong device. In other words, it opens the door to linking any amount of samples/pads together that you wish.

Egoadsr 2011-12-16 10:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhiSequence (Post 973018)
Here's your workaround:

Create 3 Kong devices (A, B, and C),
Put sample 1 on Kong A Pad 1
Put sample 2 on Kong B Pad 1
Send Kong C Pad 1 CV gate out through a splitter into Kong A Pad 1 CV gate in and Kong B Pad 1 CV gate in.

Do this for as many pads/samples as you like.

Shake, stir, and spit out a song.

Even when passing through a splitter, there is a phasing issue...
The only way to get the Pads synced is by using Link Group, ( yep i don't like the 3 groups limitation too ) or for samples use the rock solid ever synced Redrum drum computer ;).

And yes i'm shaking, stirring, and spiting out a song now, it's not a little problem that will stop me :D

Reason1O1 2011-12-16 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Egoadsr (Post 973699)
Even when passing through a splitter, there is a phasing issue...
The only way to get the Pads synced is by using Link Group, ( yep i don't like the 3 groups limitation too )

Really? Wow. I'm actually shocked that this would cause phasing issues. If you are sending from a splitter, the signal is going to both Kong pads at the exact same time. I can't for the life of me understand why this would cause them to go out of sync?

hmmm. ok. Well then I guess you're stuck using the "Link Group" for Kong. And you CAN get around the 3-link group limitation by creating more Kong drum devices, so it's not really a limitation. More a PITA.

Still, I'm kind of shocked about that splitter scenario. I'm going to have to test that one. I wonder if there's a way to offset the phasing by inserting a very slight delay into one of the chains. But again, I think this would also be a PITA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Egoadsr (Post 973699)
or for samples use the rock solid ever synced Redrum drum computer ;).

And yes i'm shaking, stirring, and spiting out a song now, it's not a little problem that will stop me :D

Now THAT's what I like to hear! ;-)


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