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-   -   Combinator Feature: ReTime (https://www.propellerheads.se/forum/showthread.php?t=168695)

Drulian 2012-10-09 23:58

Combinator Feature: ReTime
 
http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/v...aco/retime.png
Concept Art by Dave Horn, 2012.

ReTime allows the tempo of a Combinator and its devices to be governed independently of the master clock. This means:
  1. Each pattern device within a Combinator runs to the Combinator's tempo
  2. Combinator tempos can be controlled by a pattern lane for automatic adjustment without affecting the main tempo
  3. Combinator tempos can be scaled, or switched between ratios of either the main clock or the Combinator's own clock
  4. Tempo sync can be outputted to other Combinators
But... Why?

Sometimes pattern tempos are required for asynchronous reasons. Creating haunting, regular sound effects that don't increase speed while the tempo of threatening music increases. A series of vocal loops that might increase in speed without the main music increasing.

ReTime also allows for offset syncing.

Feature Set

  1. Use Combinator Tempo. This button toggles between using the master tempo or engaging the Combinator's tempo clock.
  2. Tempo. Like the Master Tempo on the Sequencer Transport, a click n' drag interface to set the Combinator tempo. Also, this tempo reflects either the Master Tempo or the Combinator's tempo setting:If this Combinator uses the Master Tempo, this number can't be altered.
  3. Scale clock. Whichever tempo is being used by the Combinator, ratios of that tempo can be switched on-the-fly. So if either the Master or Combinator tempo is at 120bpm, switching to x3 increases the tempo of the Combinator to 360bpm. This provides a dynamic way for artists to 'slide' tempos over each other, create syncopated patterns, or adjust tempos from previous compositions to fit new compositions.
  4. Tempo In / Out connectors allow Combinators to distribute tempos to other Combinators.
This feature set could also be developed into a separate Rack Extension, but as this feature set will almost always be managed inside a Combinator, it makes sense to save space and build it into the device.

Just the start of an idea :) I came up with this when I was trying to get a Dr. Rex Loop to jump in tempo from Master tempo to 2/3rds of the master tempo without changing the master tempo for a syncopation effect. I got it eventually, but I was trying to avoid dumping the pattern to a lane. I don't think the ratios I've chosen on this concept art are completely appropriate, but it's something that can be developed.

Thoughts?

juno106user 2012-10-10 03:39

A device only Steven Hawking would be able to figure out could be difficult to market. ;)

I think you could certainly use this to make unique and creative timing variances however you could also have a serious mess if you weren't careful! I for one would like to have something like this but I think that it would be a really complicated option for newer users and people who are less musically daring! Could you not program to Matrix or RPG-8 to do many of the things this idea may accomplish? As far as speeding or slowing the audio down contained within the combinator (assuming it's not playing back MIDI data), could you not create an insert FX or RE that when feed audio, could slow or speed up the captured sample with the twist of a dial? To speed it up, the whole file would have to be stored in RAM I would think so that it could be processed faster and independent of the master clock and all your other sounds..

Also, if you could do this and in effect have one track playing back at its own tempo, could you then specify a loop area that only that Combinator would follow independent of the track playback and loop points etc? If it was playing back faster, that Combinator would finish playing before the track was finished. That would be tricky to program, at least for me!

Drulian 2012-10-10 04:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by juno106user (Post 1152585)
A device only Steven Hawking would be able to figure out could be difficult to market. ;)

I don't pretend to know the ins-n-outs of programming for Reason. But I'm not going to let ignorance stop making the suggestion. Otherwise... this forum should wrap up.

Quote:

I think you could certainly use this to make unique and creative timing variances however you could also have a serious mess if you weren't careful!
So... Be careful. All the carefullness in the world over the last 80 years still hasn't stopped people distorting, getting feedback or many other sound problems. Are you suggesting that Limiters, Compressors and multi-input signal chains should also be avoided?

Quote:

I for one would like to have something like this but I think that it would be a really complicated option for newer users and people who are less musically daring!
... You've seen Thor, right?

Quote:

Could you not program to Matrix or RPG-8 to do many of the things this idea may accomplish?
No. Those are pattern devices whose speed is driven by the master tempo. those pattern devices can't speed up or slow down the tempo of playback for a device.

Quote:

As far as speeding or slowing the audio down contained within the combinator (assuming it's not playing back MIDI data), could you not create an insert FX or RE that when feed audio, could slow or speed up the captured sample with the twist of a dial?
That involves a lot of CPU processing power.

The clock is the clock. Reason's timer is driven by the CPU's clock: Reason just converts its ~2.8GHz resolution CPU clock to something managable by humans. I'm not suggesting we re-invent a completely new clock. You just re-interpret the CPU clock to a new set of figures.

Let me put it this way: I can run a movie and Reason at the same time, completely independently, in different apps. They both have different time displays. But both are driven by the same CPU clock, interpreted differently by each app. All I'm suggesting is that when Play is pushed, there's an ability for Combinators to run gear from a different interpretation of the CPU clock.

Quote:

Also, if you could do this and in effect have one track playing back at its own tempo, could you then specify a loop area that only that Combinator would follow independent of the track playback and loop points etc?
Yes. Looping would be handled by the pattern devices you have within the Combinator: Redrum, Matrix, Thor's step-counter, RPG-8's step counter, etc.

Quote:

If it was playing back faster, that Combinator would finish playing before the track was finished.
That's correct. And also intentional. That happens anyway with Dr Octo Rex and any other sampler you care to mention.

At the end of the day, ReTime is a way to create sound machines that can run asynchronously with Reason. Currently, you can run pattern devices in Combinators in Reason, but only as a ratio of the master tempo.

juno106user 2012-10-10 06:57

I would love to have more inventive parameters and devices within Reason so that we will always have the opportunity to create new forms however, I still believe that Props also have to consider marketing to a larger audience when creating and designing.. If someone makes it, I will likely buy it but I'm sure that more users would open their wallets to synths and more familier effects etc.

P.S. You were right, I was suggesting that limiters, compressors and multi-input signal chains should always be avoided. Thank you for clarifying that for everyone else! ;)

Drulian 2012-10-10 08:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by juno106user (Post 1152619)
I would love to have more inventive parameters and devices within Reason so that we will always have the opportunity to create new forms however, I still believe that Props also have to consider marketing to a larger audience when creating and designing.

Ah. That's where we might differ in approach then. I have absolutely no concern for how Propellerheads conducts their business. They're big enough and nasty enough to make their own decisions :)

The way I see it, there IS a product for people who are looking to start with Reason: Reason Essentials. Most of the devices are in Essentials. However, Props have altered gear for new users: the Essentials Mixer, for instance, doesn't have everything the full version has. This Combinator decision might not be available for Essentials, but that's beside the point.

Quote:

P.S. You were right, I was suggesting that limiters, compressors and multi-input signal chains should always be avoided. Thank you for clarifying that for everyone else! ;)
I trust you understand the analogy. A demand was identified for handling heavily fluctuating dynamic range. An innovation happened that supplied a solution: compression. I was just pointing out that neither complicating factors nor fear of damage are arguments against innovation. Perhaps my idea of implementation isn't great: I'll accept that :) But consider this: Reason already has a form of several independent clocks working. It's called ReGroove. ReTime works like ReGroove in that Reason can calculate different tempo configurations based around the Master tempo WITH bias and random math in there. Given that, ReTime should be a breeze :D

JoshuaPhilgarlic 2012-10-10 11:54

I think the easiest way would be if someone created an independent clock generator for RE ;) .

Drulian 2012-10-10 12:36

What features would it have, Spatzle?

There might me a developer out there looking at this thread, looking for opportunities.

JoshuaPhilgarlic 2012-10-10 13:40

Oh, I think the features you mentioned above are just ok. And 'cause this wouldn't fill up all the space there could be three or four in one device :) .

Drulian 2012-10-12 09:21

http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/v...aco/retime.png
Concept Art by Dave Horn, 2012.

Just some additions/changes:

Feature Set

2. Tempo. Like the Master Tempo on the Sequencer Transport, a click n' drag interface to set the Combinator tempo. Also, this tempo reflects either the Master Tempo or the Combinator's tempo setting:If this Combinator uses the Master Tempo, this number can't be altered.
And I wonder if half-rack RE templates are available. Because this clock could easily fit in a half-rack format.

OMOMs 2012-10-12 17:49

I actually kind of like this idea...
I believe interesting drones etc. are to be had out of this... think synced envelopes LFOs etc.
nice suggestion!


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