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-   -   Why doesn't the Thor Mod Matrix "Amount" go to 127? (https://www.propellerheads.se/forum/showthread.php?t=174510)

danktle 2013-01-15 04:44

Why doesn't the Thor Mod Matrix "Amount" go to 127?
 
The "Amount" modifier in the Thor should go to 127. It never has. It currently maxes out at 100, and I can't reach peak value for whatever I have set in the "Destination" column. This makes me cry sometimes, and I end up having to figure out creative ways to patch around it. Make it stop!!!

rogerlevy 2013-01-15 06:08

Wait is this true? I mean that 100 doesn't map to "full value" on params? Can we get an expert (cough like Selig) in here to kindly weigh in on this?

Tokeijikaku 2013-01-15 09:26

100 is full value, think of it as a percentage. If you plug a cv or audio cable into one of Thor's inputs and then route it 100% to an output, the resulting signal will be exactly the same. Same goes for routing anything at any stage.

I wonder what exact scenario you're having problems with. If it's with the LFOs, those of Thor only have half the amplitude of the others we're used to for some reason.

JiggeryPokery 2013-01-15 11:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokeijikaku (Post 1219384)
100 is full value, think of it as a percentage. If you plug a cv or audio cable into one of Thor's inputs and then route it 100% to an output, the resulting signal will be exactly the same. Same goes for routing anything at any stage.

I wonder what exact scenario you're having problems with. If it's with the LFOs, those of Thor only have half the amplitude of the others we're used to for some reason.

Because in the MBRS cv values are effectively -64 to +64, not 0-127. Thus to get full range cv output from Thor you need to "double" the output (ie, lfo > 100 > cv1 output > 100 > cv1 output)

danktle 2013-01-16 02:31

It is not a percentage. I thought so too.

Try this: Start with a new Thor, and initialize the patch. Choose any filter for the first filter slot (I would recommend the "Low Pass Ladder Filter" for this test, and set the slope to 24 Type I.) Set the frequency AND the "Env" knob on the Low Pass Ladder Filter to zero. There should be no sound at all when you play a note as the filter is all the way closed with zero envelope tracking.

Now take a modulation slot, and have the Source be "Filter Env." Set the Amount to 100. Set the Destination to "Filter 1 Frequency." You should be able to hear notes again, as we have set the mod matrix to basically emulate the "Env" knob. *Now do this same thing in a second slot. Same source, same destination.* Now, with the Amount still at 100 in the *first* slot, slowly increase the Amount in the second slot while playing notes. Notice how the filter clearly opens a little more even with a mod slot already claiming to push "100%" value to the filter? Set the "Filter Env" sustain to the maximum so that the filter stays static instead of decaying. You will notice that it takes two modulation slots (or a "Double Destination" mod slot with both destinations pointing to the same parameter) in order to push a target to its maximum value. Try this with LFO's as the modulation source as well, and different destinations.

(The reason that we are making use of the Mod Matrix instead of just using the Filter Envelope to do what it already does is to demonstrate what I'm saying - the "Amount 100" doesn't transmit the peak value that a source can actually generate. When building new sounds, suddenly you notice that you aren't getting the peak value from the modulation source as you might think...)

And note that pushing 0-100% in integers will produce truncated or rounded values when trying to map it to a target that actually goes 0-127.

I have developed workarounds for this, but it's an oddity in the programming that really could and should be a little cleaner. But with that being said, if you get creative in the Thor Mod Matrix, and really get wild with it inside of a combinator and use the CV splitter, you can push things well out of range from a control perspective (the Free LFO Rate can be pushed beyond the range of the actual rate knob in both directions for example...) and it can make for some interesting tricks and effects ;)

danktle 2013-01-16 02:44

And Jiggery, That is exactly what I mean. I didn't follow you at first. Correct, you have to double the output. But -64 to +64 (actually +63 when you count the value of "0" as an integer step) is still 128 steps, so there again you have the quantization problem of trying to map 100 steps into 127 steps -- assuming the Amount actually pushed the destination all the way to maximum output...

colcifer 2013-01-16 03:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by danktle (Post 1220062)
It is not a percentage. I thought so too.

Technically, it is a percentage, just not in the way you want it to be. :)

Funny thing - I sent Mattias an email about something similar earlier today.

danktle 2013-01-19 23:57

Technically, it is not. Theoretically, sure. Technically no.

I am very much saying that the "maximum" Amount Value of 100 in the Thor Mod Matrix corresponds to 100 out of a possible 127. The last 27 values are missing because it is not mapped correctly. Thus, a redundant mod slot is needed to get the peak value out of the destination you are trying to control. That is the entire point of this thread.

Mate 2013-01-20 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by danktle (Post 1219300)
The "Amount" modifier in the Thor should go to 127. It never has. It currently maxes out at 100, and I can't reach peak value for whatever I have set in the "Destination" column. This makes me cry sometimes, and I end up having to figure out creative ways to patch around it. Make it stop!!!

How would you measure 100% stuff in da Echo for example?

So don't bother, all cool there!

colcifer 2013-01-20 03:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by danktle (Post 1222715)
Technically, it is not. Theoretically, sure. Technically no.

That's one way of looking at it. What I wanted to point out was that it is still a percentage, even if it's not a percentage of the full range of midi values.


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