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-   -   Am I missing something about VST's? (https://www.propellerheads.se/forum/showthread.php?t=179542)

ryaz 2013-03-31 04:53

Am I missing something about VST's?
 
Ok before I start getting flamed about VST's and Reason, I'm not asking how/why there aren't any VST's in Reason, there are plenty of threads about that.

My thing is that I wanted to use Sylenth1 to create my sounds, but wanted to use Reason since I'm most familiar with it. Since some people want to use a VST synth (ie: sylenth), but can't use it in Reason, there are people saying to use other complicated ways to get a sound from a different program into Reason, but why not just create the synth you want in the program it is originally in (ie: ableton), save and export one note that lasts 2 seconds and import that sound into the NNXT sample in reason? I haven't tried this yet, because I'm still learning how to use Ableton.

Is there something that I'm missing about doing it this way? I was just thinking this and it seems like it would be the easiest approach to getting sounds of VST synths into Reason.

Is it because the way a sampler works that playing higher / lower notes isn't the same as playing it through the actually synth vs a sample?

The only downside I can think of is that if you wanted to modify the synth, you'd have to go back into (insert other DAW here) and export it and sample it in Reason. Or am I missing something here??

EpiGenetik 2013-03-31 05:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryaz (Post 1277078)
but why not just create the synth you want in the program it is originally in (ie: ableton), save and export one note that lasts 2 seconds and import that sound into the NNXT sample in reason?

This is actually a really cool technique to use that is common in hip-hop, and techno/house. You can get a lot of cool sounds this way that can't be accessed via conventional methods, and it also means that every note has a slightly different timbre, so keep this trick in your tool belt. :)

platzangst 2013-03-31 05:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryaz (Post 1277078)
but why not just create the synth you want in the program it is originally in (ie: ableton), save and export one note that lasts 2 seconds and import that sound into the NNXT sample in reason? I haven't tried this yet, because I'm still learning how to use Ableton.

You can do this, in fact, but there are a few things to consider about it.

1: Sample playback in the NN-XT is basically a matter of speeding up or slowing down the original sample. If you record a 2-second note from somewhere, and put it into an NN-XT, it will play that exact note at that exact pitch at whatever you set your root note to be, say, for example, C3 on the keyboard. If you try to play it one octave down (C2), the sound will play at the lower pitch, but for twice as long (4 seconds). Conversely, playing it one octave up (C4) will make it play twice as fast, one second long. So anything that has time-sensitive components to it (like an arpeggiating synth) will be out of sync for anything but the root note.

2: There are also complex synth patches that have different features, such as an envelope or filter that changes with velocity, where simply recording one note may not enable you to capture all the subtle changes that can happen under different conditions. A sample is like a snapshot, fixed in place.

Now, there are ways to compensate for this. Many people create patches for the NN-XT that are composed of huge numbers of samples, sometimes multiple samples for each key. This can require a huge amount of memory on disc or in RAM, but you get far more realistic results this way. It's also a lot of work to set such a thing up.

A good example of someone who has done this kind of thing is Bitley, who has released a Fairlight Refill that emulates the old classic Fairlight sampler as well as many other vintage hardware synths. It's a huge Refill and costs a bit, but he has done a painstaking job of recreating the sound of these synths.

The question is: how close do you want to get to the sound of your original synth, how much effort do you want to put into it, and how flexible can you be with the results? What you describe can be done. How well it is done is up to you.

ryaz 2013-04-01 05:36

Awesome explanation!! Just the kind of technical response I was looking for.

So could I essentially create a synth for every key from, let's say C1 all the way up to C4 and load it all into one NNXT? I would check if I was near my laptop, but I'm just so curious and excited about this. :) :)

Thanks for your input!

ryaz 2013-04-01 05:37

Yes yes!!

Check out platzangst's response in this thread. Very helpful!

ryszard 2013-04-01 06:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryaz (Post 1277960)
So could I essentially create a synth for every key from, let's say C1 all the way up to C4 and load it all into one NNXT?

Absolutely yes. For the record, it is usually considered acceptable to sample every third note as you don't generally notice artifacts a single semitone up or down from the root sample. Good to know if you don't need audiophile results and would like to save a bit of time.

For some deeper insight, especially into the arcana of multisampling, have a look at Making Music With Samples, available through Amazon. At $40 USD it isn't cheap but it uses several different programs--including Reason--to illustrate technique. Highly recommended.

Richard

xbitz 2013-04-01 08:34

hi, there is a quite long tutorial(series) about this topic in the Reason Wizardry Season 1 / 2009 February folder (Sampling VST Instruments into Reason) they used the Extreme Sample Converter (it has vst rack, supports effect chains, creates the samples on different keys/zones automatically) which can help a lot, but its not so simple, for example solving the looping is quite difficult because you have to do it manually

ryaz 2013-04-01 10:41

Thanks for the links! I will definitely have to check out that book and that Reason Wizardry.

I was thinking of a possible snag with using the sampling method though. How would I deal with imitating (or better yet actually doing) a Low Frequency Cutoff knob, let's say for introducing the synth in the samples?

EDIT:
Ok, so I might be answering my own question here, but I'm guessing it's the exact same with just automating a High Pass Filter?

bananaranha 2013-04-01 11:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryaz (Post 1278022)
Thanks for the links! I will definitely have to check out that book and that Reason Wizardry.

I was thinking of a possible snag with using the sampling method though. How would I deal with imitating (or better yet actually doing) a Low Frequency Cutoff knob, let's say for introducing the synth in the samples?

EDIT:
Ok, so I might be answering my own question here, but I'm guessing it's the exact same with just automating a High Pass Filter?

After you load the raw synth sound in the sampler, you can also use the sampler's cutoff/frequency, envelopers etc to shape the sound.

Vallin 2013-04-01 13:29

Just some ideas:

Take the synth "as clean as possible" and redo filters envelopes, effects and stuff in reason. It will loose a bit of the original character, but you will end up with a much more controllable sound.

When looping, you might get clicks whatever you do (even with crossfading that can intruduce a pumping sound imo). I sometimes find that it is due to the right and left channel not having the ideal loop point in the same point in time. In those cases, I split up R/L channels and treat them as separate samples. Later the L/R are "joined" in the sampler, after successful looping that is.

There are looping softwares out there to assist you. I used to use "Zero-X Seamless Looper", but it is old and there must be better options available now(?).

Finally, looping and getting a good end result is not as easy as one might think, you will need to practice. I am not a master at all, and I actually buy most stuff nowadays as I find it too time consuming to be bothered. There are however many "wizards" around selling ready-made packs of high quality, both in this forum and elsewhere.


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