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-   -   Additive synth should be possible ?! (https://www.propellerheads.se/forum/showthread.php?t=187249)

lejalle 2013-07-29 19:26

Additive synth should be possible ?!
 
reading the thread https://www.propellerheads.se/forum/...d.php?t=139326
I was wondering that now that we have PX7 for FM and Revival for "additive organ synthesis and more", it should be possible that the next synth will be an additive synth with the ability to change each partial (Noxious is ok but apparently you can't deal with a specific harmonic). A sort of descendant of the RMI HS and Kawaï K5[000] !
(btw the pics in the above thread don'y show anymore : too bad !)

selig 2013-07-29 19:49

Separate control over each partial, especially as you go well over 100 partials, is a PITA IMO. For these types of sounds to be interesting, again IMO, you need to be controlling many partials at once, which isn't feasible with individual controls. Just to make a patch sound slightly brighter means individually adjusting tens or even hundreds of partial controls at once, which is pretty much impossible with individual faders.

On top of that, 'drawing' the partial's faders requires you understand the relationship with the partials level and phase to the audible results, which is difficult at best for most.

I think synths like Noxious are being extremely clever by giving you control over groups of partials, allowing more interesting tonal adjustments then trying to specify each partial's level/phase on it's own. You can still increase/decrease an individual partial's level with Noxious if you like, using the most narrow settings.

What I'm interested in seeing is further advances in CONTROL of ALL partials in musical and useful ways, rather than having to draw hundreds of partial's levels just to create one static waveform. IMO it's these advances, if they allow intuitive control, that will go beyond the static waves that additive synthesis has been known for in the past. Seems like that's the area that folks are trying to address, either by morphing/crossfading between waves ala the Camel Audio Cameleon 5000, or by techniques like Noxious uses.

I have my own ideas for addressing these issues, and hopefully there will be some additional future innovations that takes additive synthesis beyond just a way to draw complex waveforms by specifying individual partial's levels and phase. :-)

colcifer 2013-07-30 05:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by selig (Post 1364378)
I have my own ideas for addressing these issues

Go on... How does Razor, which gets so much praise, do it? Or is it just a particularly fancy implementation of subtractive synthesis (what it looks like, to me)?

colcifer 2013-08-01 01:24

Bump. asdfjsa;dflkj

selig 2013-08-01 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by colcifer (Post 1364608)
Go on... How does Razor, which gets so much praise, do it? Or is it just a particularly fancy implementation of subtractive synthesis (what it looks like, to me)?

Razor is based on additive synthesis from what little I know of it. :-)

lejalle 2013-08-01 14:47

1 Attachment(s)
Razor is apparently based on an additive heart but it shows some "well known" modules to the user, such as filters and FX. You can't access the harmonics per se so using it fells more like using a substrative synth.

I understand the argument that having to set all the harmonics is quite laborious. But perhaps the fun can be had with not so much hanmonics. I'm trying Revival at the moment and it is very good not only for organ sounds but for other kind of sounds. It makes me fell it is ok to build sounds with "only" 10 harmonics moving from attack thru to release. And thanks to the modifiers more harmonic components can be added. In fact it is really a good "additive" synth. It could be presented that way and not as an "organ and more" or a "drawbar synth".

I've wasted some time sketching a new layout for Revival, put away the FX section (which could be sell as a dedicated RE) and rename the synth "ReAdd" (the idea came from the fact I don't like the wood panels and the overall look and also some people on the forum are complaining about the look of Revival). No ambition here, no finshed work, I'm not a designer. Just if Sonomics could proposed a "synth oriented" version of Revival.. I'll buy it !

joseydeclaire 2013-08-01 15:45

I think too, Noxious is very clever and in that moment you find the point how it works (and it does fine, one or two things, I´m hoping will come in an Upgrade) you´ll see you can do many sounds like K5. And it is not as hard to understand how Noxious works. I think it´s very simple to understand and I like it :)

eXode 2013-08-01 15:53

One additive synth that is very cool is Image-Line Harmor. It uses additive synthesis but is laid out like a subtractive synth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Image-Line
Harmor is driven by a powerful additive synthesis engine. Its modules will look familiar to subtractive synthesizer enthusiasts: oscillators, filters & phasers, these are featured in Harmor but, because performed through additive synthesis, offer more freedom. You don't just select filter types, you draw them.


selig 2013-08-01 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by lejalle (Post 1365789)
Razor is apparently based on an additive heart but it shows some "well known" modules to the user, such as filters and FX. You can't access the harmonics per se so using it fells more like using a substrative synth.

I understand the argument that having to set all the harmonics is quite laborious. But perhaps the fun can be had with not so much hanmonics. I'm trying Revival at the moment and it is very good not only for organ sounds but for other kind of sounds. It makes me fell it is ok to build sounds with "only" 10 harmonics moving from attack thru to release. And thanks to the modifiers more harmonic components can be added. In fact it is really a good "additive" synth. It could be presented that way and not as an "organ and more" or a "drawbar synth".

I've wasted some time sketching a new layout for Revival, put away the FX section (which could be sell as a dedicated RE) and rename the synth "ReAdd" (the idea came from the fact I don't like the wood panels and the overall look and also some people on the forum are complaining about the look of Revival). No ambition here, no finshed work, I'm not a designer. Just if Sonomics could proposed a "synth oriented" version of Revival.. I'll buy it !

Good points, to which I will add that it's just not "setting" the harmonics that is laborious, it's animating them in a musical way so you don't just end up with a static waveform, cool as it may be. That's my main point.

While there are indeed "filters" in Razor and Noxious, there's a big difference in doing filtering etc at the harmonic level vs filtering the audio signal. For one thing, a true "brick wall" filter is actually possible. In fact, when specifying the total number of harmonics you are in essence doing brick wall filtering. In these cases you are not literally filtering the audio signal, rather, you are specifying the range and level of individual harmonics "as a group". This approach allows you to control vast numbers of harmonics with one or two controls, creating more real-time animated patches than previous additive synths were capable of creating IMO. :-)

lejalle 2013-08-01 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by eXode (Post 1365815)
One additive synth that is very cool is Image-Line Harmor. It uses additive synthesis but is laid out like a subtractive synth.

Harmless is cool also and you have what resembles "partial access" (the mask). And the UI seems to fit well with the current UI possibilities of RE.


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