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graymadder 2002-08-09 00:19

Ive Made My Choice
thanz to all who repplied to an earlier thread on Cubase vs Logic

I'm goin with Logic as Im a mac user and can only hope for the best from the two teamed up....

In 5 buisness days hopefully ill have something to talk about as a reason user

mikeweeks 2002-08-09 03:12

Re: Ive Made My Choice
Right on!

did you go for the big box? Its a mess o stuff - let me know what you think, as I'm jsut starting out with Logic too.

graymadder 2002-08-09 06:52

Re: Ive Made My Choice
Went for LAP 5 and less than three hours after I ordered got an email from tech support and it still only has ReWire 1 support so I ditched the order and am going to wait for Cubase SX on Mac.

sux cause ive been using micrologic so im use to the interface but im upgrading so i can get things like Reason

Emagic looses this time and i have a feeling with as popular as reason is they will loose more and more until the completely implament RW2 into their system

lucille 2002-08-09 19:19

Re: thoughts on Logic
I have serious reservations re Emagic LAP.
None of this means that it is not a great
DAW--perhaps the best-- only that you should take the following into consideration:

First--the Rewire 1 implementation has
ranged from iffy to non-existent in recent
relaeases. Although they will eventually get
Rewire2 off the ground--the Rewire track record is
not encouraging. If you look at vsti integraion--
you'll see many similar problems.

Reason users are not really in Logic's core
demagraphic--i see Emagic as much more
concerned with Pro Tools issues.

Second--Read the Sonik matter forum on the web--
there are many many problems in 5.x land--and
some of thm have gotten worse in 5.2. Be prepared
for funkiness

Third: the strengths of Logic don't play to the
new soft synth driven DAW. The somewhat
overhyped "environment" is really only
applicable to midi out integration--its interesting
if obtuse technology--but its not really helpful
to Reason/Softsynth users.

You can take shots at sx and sonar as well--
good luck.

wrwellen 2002-08-10 03:20

Re: thoughts on Logic
:Lucille - Thanks for your always informative posts at the p-head and sonik forums.

Like a lot of other folks, I really like both logic and reason. I'm comfortable in both apps. I would like very much to see emagic properly implement rewire 2 so I can use reason as essentially a soft synth in logic. At present, I will work up songs in reason, save tracks as wav files and dump them into logic. Then I record vocals, guitar, etc. I also do a lot of parts on the ESX24 which is a great sampler. Obviously, there are limitations to working this way.

I don't use much midi, so I don't really care how great the logic environment is. However, I love the way logic sounds. (The reason tracks sound much much better after I get them into logic, but that's another topic.) I love the effects in logic. It is truly amazing in a lot of different ways.

I use a pc. Before the July 1 acquisition of Emagic by Apple, I was content to patiently wait for Emagic to finally get their act together with rewire 2. Now it appears that 5.2 may be the last update for pc and of course, it doesn't have rewire 2. I don't know that we will ever see a version of logic for pc that has non-buggy implementation of rewire 2. That truly sucks.

So now I have to decide between pc and mac. If I stay pc, I need to upgrade. At present, you get much more bang for your buck with a pc. By migrating some of the stuff I have in my current set up, I will end up with a killer pc system for at least half the price of a comparable mac.

Lucille, I gather you stayed pc and dumped logic for sonar. How is that working out for you? Did you try Cubase sx? People are posting that sonar's rewire 2 implementation is better than cubase's, although sonar is limited to 16 rewire channels. If I stay pc, I am thinking I could work up tracks in sonar rewired with reason and then dump them into logic to clean up, maybe add some more tracks and mix. Did you try this? How does sonar sound compared to logic? Does using wdm make a difference?

Of course, if I spend the bucks to go mac, I may ultimately end up with logic and reason rewired together perfectly and who knows what other goodies Emapple will have in store for mac users.

Graymadder - I feel your pain. Good luck with cubase and report back.

lucille 2002-08-10 04:45

Re: decisions, decisions...
:::Hello W.

I switched to Sonar instead of going LAP 5.x
when I concluded Emagic was not serious
about supporting rewire. I did not however,
anticipate them dropping the PC.

Here's my take. Sonar has the best midi tools
of the big 3. The drum map functionality in
Sonar is amazing; it effectively allows you to
use Redrum as a Battery style 40 or 50 cell
drum machine sampler. (It also allows Redrum
to be GM compliant--a plus if you trade
files) The rewire implementation is solid,
but allows oly 15 midi sends. Since I do
mostly pop and dance, this is not really a limitation.
I also end up programming a lot of stuff in
Reason. I program all my automation natively
in Reason. Sonar also has excellent loop/slicing
support. Rewire is certain to come up to 32
or 64 in the next realease.

I am less familiar with SX, but I think it has some
form of drum mapping as well; I believe the
Rewire midi send limit in Sx is 32 or 64, a major
plus. I loved the Musikmesse Sx demo that
was on the web, but an in person demo turned
me off--there just seemed to be alot to classic
Cubase wierdness still in the program. i also
found the graphics busy--but many call Sonar
a "spreadsheet".

Soundwise--Its so hard to say. Logic is certainly
the loudest of the 3. Some people mistake its
higher base gain for sound density. I think you
just have to get some demos and play some
.wavs. The fx in Sonar are surprisingly good; some
people write that it sounds thin. I don't know.

Bottom line: If you really like Reason, I would not
move to the mac to follow logic. Emagic doen't seem
very interested in rewire. If your willing to spend, Sx
is probrobly the better PC choice. I like the Sonar
interface and the midi tools--so I went that way.

If you really like Logic, a lot of the functionality
of Reason is availible in Kontact, esx24 and
Battery. Logic seems to be trying to pave a
higher end profile with its new proprietary
instruments ($$$).

I just can't escape the Reason magnet--I'm just
more--far more--creative in that program than
any other.

Oh yeah, PC's rule! (if you know someone who knows
what there doing...)

Good luck.

wrwellen 2002-08-10 08:01

Re: decisions, decisions...
:Lucille - Thanks, I really appreciate the advice.

No one anticipated Emagic dropping pc. I’m sure you caught all the posts on sonik and other forums. Many people were, and still are, mightily pissed. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a class action lawsuit, but that’s a completely different topic.

I’m real close to sticking with pc. I think a combination of reason, logic and sonar will more than fulfill my needs. If I end up thinking logic is better for the final product than sonar, I’ll use sonar + reason for writing and when the song is together enough, I’ll drop it into logic. I'll give Cubase SX a look too.

Reason is a great writing tool. Like you, I am way more creative in reason than I am in other apps. The problem is that a lot of the stuff I’m writing now involves guitars and thus I need audio tracks along with reason. Of course, much of my writing is also sitting down alone with a guitar or a keyboard, or doing it in my head.

One more question for you and anyone else out there: It sounds like you know someone who does killer work on pc DAW’s. Do you have a recommendation for someone in the LA area who really knows their stuff (I mean like Hans on Sonik)? I’m not overjoyed with my current technician who shall remain nameless. I don’t trust myself enough to open up the boxes and start playing around. I’d rather pay a little and have it done right.

thanks again and good luck,


lucille 2002-08-10 18:27

Re: tab notation in sonar, pc specialist in LA
One cool feature in Sonar is that you can
annotate your scores with chord tabs--you
can also display notes on a bass guitar fret board.

ON the PC specialist side--i don't know any audio
specialists, but these guys are good if you want
build a custom rig:

ULTIMA PC, Glendale CA.

I recently swapped in a lo noise cpu fan and
my machine is essentially noiseless. ($25)

If you go sonar, understand the Sonar is based
on WDM drivers, a native microsoft driver. Some
cards handle WDM better than others. I use
aardvark's Q10--aardvark has a WDM variant
--aWDM--that is very solid with minimal latency.
There is a Sonar forum on the Cakewalk site--
you caould check for hardware discussions.

Sonar plug ins are Dx rather than VST. However,
there a couple of excellent and cheap wrappers
that will allow you to use VST's. You will get better
vst implementation in Sonar with a wrapper than
vst native with Logic in many cases. (Although to
be fair to Emagic, they appear to have solved
some of their vst rpoblems with 5.2)

Good luck.

rpage 2002-08-11 20:40

Re: tab notation in sonar, pc specialist in LA
:the Mac you can keep it.
Unless a bastardized (closed) Unix system is the way you want to go.

The PC has become supper user friendly with XP.
Linux looks better everyday.
Sonar as DAW and I have used all of them.

I am running Reason 2 loaded to the gills rewired into Sonar, Reaktor, Batery, Kontakt all running Standalone on one machine (PC/XP) and loaded with a physical loop in my MIDI interface port 8 as control from Sonar to NI products set to recieve on different and some with same channels depending on layer techniques. Not to mention no problem controlling my out board gear and synths at the same time.

oh yeah I am running my stand alones at 2 milliseconds!! and getting 5.3 response times with rewire and DXi synths. I know Apple is boasting a 1 millisecond audiocore latency but think about what this actually means...and...I'll let you do the thinking and see if you don't come up with some negitive reasons (no pun inteended) not to stay with the Applemagic horror show.

wrwellen 2002-08-11 22:16

Re: tab notation in sonar, pc specialist in LA

I like the tab notation idea. Hadn't heard about that.

My soundcard is a MOTU 1224. According to the Cakewalk and MOTU sites, this card has a WDM driver and is compatible with Sonar. I’m going to check out the boards to see if anyone has had problems. I would download the demo and see how it works, except I’m using 98fe and I need to upgrade to at least 98se to use the MOTU WDM driver. By the way, after a fair amount of tweaking, 98fe has been pretty solid for reason and logic 4.8.1. If I stay pc, I’ll probably end up with XP and LAP 5.? when I upgrade.

I’m glad to hear there is no problem with VST in sonar. I was a little concerned about the wrapper deal.

I’ll check out Ultima.

Thanks again for the help and good luck with all your projects.


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