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  #1  
Old 2011-05-22, 21:41
eXode's Avatar
eXode eXode is offline
 
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RDD - Reason Device Designer

RDD - Reason Device Designer

Here are my collected suggestions, edited and summarized, regarding a new extension for Reason called the Reason Device Designer, or RDD for short.

The Reason Device Designer is an integrated extension for any one wanting to design and develop their own devices for Reason, it is similar to Reaktor in concept. With this solution, Reason will have it's own plugin system. Propellerhead could release new modules for the Reason Device Designer together with new releases of Reason.

The device designer will be created in such a way that anyone owning Reason can download and/or purchase new devices but obviously only people owning the actual Reason Device Designer can create and edit the devices.

Once a new device plugin is published, it will be able to save it's own patches.

Devices created in the device designer can be locked/protected by the original author. The development environment will have many levels of editing but the core is that it will consist of different modules and ready made graphics.

In the audio path designer the user can build their own instrument with access to modules like oscillators, filters, wavefolders, shapers, envelopes, modulation generators (lfo's) etc.

In the GUI designer there will be a set of graphical items such as the different knobs, sliders and buttons with the same look and feel as the devices already present in Reason. Of course anyone with graphical skills can add their own knobs, slider and buttons, but for those who aren’t artists there would be a nice base library to work with.

On audio module level, the user can choose to edit the characteristics for the different modules. For instance a user can edit the standard LP filter and tweak it's response curve as well as modifying the bandwidth of the resonance and whether the filter should self oscillate or not, or if it should be selectable by the user. You could make your own filter that is the biggest, baddest and meanest filter anyone heard.

Oscillators and their waveforms can also be loaded and tweaked in various ways. Is that sawtooth too perfect? Edit the symmetry in the vector based graphical editor and add some noise to make it sound rawer.

Even such a simple thing like envelopes could be edited to have all the different stages with different curves, i.e. log, lin or exp and different response times.

The Reason Device Designer as an extension to Reason would be an unstoppable force!

I will continue to add to this post as I come up with more details.

Last edited by eXode; 2011-10-31 at 08:49.
  #2  
Old 2011-05-22, 22:26
GeorgeFeb GeorgeFeb is offline
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Extremly, awesome, great! It's like Max for Reason, but more simple! =)

Anyway nice suggestion, but Props do not do that, why?

Cos about 10 years they add new devices by small portions & when new devices or very little changes comes released - users getting trilled! =)

Awesome policy to doing business ever!

P.S. If they implement RDD, they lose ability to do their business like they do!

Last edited by GeorgeFeb; 2011-05-22 at 22:41.
  #3  
Old 2011-05-22, 23:03
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dioxide dioxide is offline
 
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Interesting idea although I'm not sure I'd like to see it happen or not. I've steered clear of Reaktor and SynthMaker as my actual music making productivity is likely to take a big hit if I start messing with this stuff. Of course I wouldn't have to start building stuff myself if I didn't want to. Personally I use Reason in much less of a modular way than I did a few years back, mainly because you had to in order to get around limitations that were more of an issue at that point.

I think it's interesting to see that most DAWs are heading towards the same point from different directions. Live started out as audio only and has eventually now included not just MIDI devices but also Max allowing you to do things that you would have needed Reaktor for. Other DAWs have added more built in devices and Reason added audio features. So it looks like everyone will end up offering something similar in a few years.

One question I would have is this. If you build a platform where users can design and build their own devices and are therefore able to sell them, does that affect how a user feels about buying the host software itself? Does it devalue the host itself and would users expect existing VSTs to be ported to the ReDD format? If these devices are therefore available cross-DAW then it means there is no real loyalty to the host itself as you can easily move all your sounds and sequences from one DAW to another. I'm not really sure why some hosts allow OMF output, import makes sense if you want new users, but not export.

I'd probably be happy to see this be introduced as long as the patches themselves cannot be locked by Refill makers and remain fully editable by any user. Although you then have the problem of how to motivate the device designers themselves if they cannot fully protect their work. Then again this is pretty much where we are with Refills anyway. As I say my main concern is that people will be less willing to pay for the host software. How do Reaktor and Kontakt fair when it comes to expecting users to pay for both the underlying infrastructure and individual instruments?
  #4  
Old 2011-05-22, 23:45
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plaamook plaamook is offline
 
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oh man... don't even tease me with this stuff!!!
i won't be able to sleep for weeks now!!!

there would be no better way, from a user point of view, to move forward IMHO.

i DON'T think locking of devices should be allowed.

and i don't think that we need to think about it in terms of 'selling' devices. in the reaktor/max community there is a real feeling of sharing there (though i guess you can buy patches too. never tried) and that would open the whole thing up to a new level.

the only thing is that i suppose props would have to change their business plan a bit. not sure

man, look out world, eh?
  #5  
Old 2011-05-23, 00:12
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JiggeryPokery JiggeryPokery is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dioxide View Post
expecting users to pay for both the underlying infrastructure and individual instruments?
Kontakt is where the money is atm according to my sources, so I guess people don't mind too much. But it's such a different environment to Reason, since it can be used as a VST/AU etc.

"In the audio path designer the user can build his own instrument with access to modules like oscillators, filters, wavefolders, shapers, envelopes, modulation generators (lfo's) etc.

In the GUI designer there will be a set of graphical items such as the different knobs, sliders and buttons with the same look and feel as the devices already present in Reason.

On audio module level the user can choose to edit the characteristics for the different modules. For instance a user can edit the standard LP filter and tweak it's response curve as well as modifying the bandwidth of the resonance and whether the filter should self oscillate or not, or if it should be selectable by the user. You could make your own filter that is the biggest, baddest and meanest filter anyone heard.

Oscillators and their waveforms can also be loaded and tweaked in various ways. Is that sawtooth too perfect? Edit the symmetry in the vector based graphical editor and add some noise to make it sound rawer.

Even such a simple thing like envelopes could be edited to have all the different stages with different curves, i.e. log, lin or exp and different response times.
"

It's like a wet dream, eXode, really it is! It would be unimaginably awesome and truly FTW. My first question is: Would all these RDD items have to be natively implemented within Reason in order for them to work? If so, users will, predicatably and perhaps justifiably, complain they have to buy stuff to access features that the program contains, and they'll ask why those modules couldn't have just be implemented in a SuperThor?

I love the idea of RDD, I really do, but think more about it in recent days I can't see it happening: there would be too few purchasers (basically, those of us who already do ReFill production plus a few newcomers, a few more curious types, and some icon completists) to justify two years of development at the expense of continued progress in R+R. To justify it commercially it would need be a premium product, £200+, which my traditional pessimism still thinks is optimistically low. If it shifted 500 copies it might cover the development cost of two/three programmers full time. I haven't sold 500 copies of Kings of Kong for a tenner No, the only way it would be viable from a Props perspective would be take a license fee for every copy of a device made with RDD that's sold, as they do with ReFills through the PropShop.

Would big hitters like NI or Arturia be that keen on using it to develop for what is essentially a closed system (and in NI's case, a competitor). RDD would have to offer the ability to do some pretty amazing things not currently achievable to tempt them... to be a plugin with the flexibility of a VST essentially, so Arturia could actually put a 2600 or a MiniMoog in the rack. As dioxide notes, at that point people will question why can't they just be able to use VSTs? At least currently there is a valid argument why they can't.

So imo, a device with all these features and flexibility within Reason.... possibly, I could see that happening down the line in Reason 7 or 8, including perhaps the ability to lock the device for ReFill developers. An external product to develop devices for a closed system where all the coding for the devices must already exist in the closed system in order to run the externally developed devices? It's NGH... it'd be quicker and cheaper - and better rewarded - just to implement a VST wrapper and make Record (for better or more likely, worse) a ReWire Master.
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Last edited by JiggeryPokery; 2011-05-23 at 00:16.
  #6  
Old 2011-05-23, 00:41
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MattiasHG MattiasHG is offline
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Honestly I'd just like more devices, preferably a lot of half-rack stuff and expansions to the combinator architecture. This would still just add to R+R, give everyone the tools. I don't really see the point of a stand-alone "device designer" when the modular rack metafor could just be improved upon and allow most things but the most niche "modular synth" approaches. Tweaking waveforms and filters could just as well be added to a new Reason synth, like a half-rack osc device.

2 cents
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  #7  
Old 2011-05-23, 08:45
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eXode eXode is offline
 
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@ Dioxide:

I don't think that the selling part would be an issue because it wouldn't be any different than Refills in my mind. It would take Refills to a new level because you could sell not only patches but devices with the Refills.

It becomes abstract here because we are talking about two different types of patches but to try and be as clear as possible: Personally I want the actual devices projects in RDD to be protected as an option. However the new device itself should be fully editable in Reason with saving/loading patches etc like a full fledged instrument.

In my vision the end user wouldn't need to pay extra for the RDD just to be able to use these plugins (well in some means they would have to pay for an upgrade that enables this plugin functionality, but other than that), only users wanting to develop their own instrument and effect devices for Reason would have to pay for that capability but anyone can use the finished device.

And to comment plamook, I would also prefer to view it as selling patches rather than devices as such. It would open up for a whole new refill market imho, but I think that the option to be able to protect the core contents in some way is important. An alternative would be to do the protection similar to how published reason songs work.

To sum up, it wouldn't be any stranger for a user to pay for a Refill with new devices (and patches for those devices) than it is to pay for a regular refill with patches for the already existing devices.
  #8  
Old 2011-11-01, 12:21
marlonbrando marlonbrando is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiasHG View Post
Tweaking waveforms and filters could just as well be added to a new Reason synth, like a half-rack osc device.

2 cents
would not that be a mono synth?
  #9  
Old 2011-05-23, 18:21
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Dogboy1973 Dogboy1973 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eXode View Post
RDD - Reason Device Designer. The Reason Device Designer is a stand alone software that is payed for by any one wanting to design and develop their own devices for Reason, it is similar to Reaktor in concept. With this solution, Reason will have it's own plugin system. Propellerhead could release new modules as a pay for add-on or include them with new pay for releases of the RDD software.
I like this idea. I have thought before that it would be cool if Propellerheads (or maybe even third parties) developed devices that could be purchased individually and integrated into the software, maybe in the same way that Reason integrates with Record i.e. you buy & download a device, install it in the required location & it is then available in the Reason/Record rack. The beauty of such a system is that devices could be released more often than waiting for a Reason/Record update. These could then be bought only by people that required them.

Your RDD idea takes this a step further by offering to everyone who purchases the development software the opportunity to create their own devices. Sounds very cool but could there be a problem with quality control? A lot of VST's are created using development tools & we are all aware that these are not always as solid as they could be! Presumably the RDD would have to be pretty tight in terms of features to help maintain the quality of bespoke devices. I think things could get pretty messy if we're basically talking about a VST like plug-in standard for Reason/Record.
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Last edited by Dogboy1973; 2011-05-23 at 18:24.
  #10  
Old 2011-05-23, 18:42
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JiggeryPokery JiggeryPokery is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogboy1973 View Post
. Sounds very cool but could there be a problem with quality control? A lot of VST's are created using development tools & we are all aware that these are not always as solid as they could be! Presumably the RDD would have to be pretty tight in terms of features to help maintain the quality of bespoke devices. I think things could get pretty messy if we're basically talking about a VST like plug-in standard for Reason/Record.
Ya, your last point was at the back of my mind too, but I couldn't find the words to express it late last night! The saving grace though is Props have a very nice habit of not releasing stuff that doesn't work: one only has to look at how smartly and smoothly the R+R integration runs. I don't think this would be an issue at all. All the NO-2-VST members would vastly prefer a bespoke Props plugin system. Assuming they've not begun something like this already in their secret underground lair, it's going to be 2-3 years work developing such a system. Assuming they've not begun something like this already, it won't happen 'til 2014-15. The danger is development of R+R will be on a backburner, like how Reason 5 was delayed by a year (based on traditional 2-year cycles) to make way for Record.

If RDD were to happen it would be 'kin awesome and I expect most of the current ReFill guys would want in the action.

ps. I'm loving all this cool activity on the FSF in between the ReWire threads, it's very inspiring.
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