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  #1  
Old 2004-10-11, 19:24
kmonkey22
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Posts: n/a
Dr.REX sound BUG ? No newbie stuff ;) For mad users only ;)

Hello to all! Right on start i will mention few things just to clear things out.

This is not any kind of flame post or such.

I am pretty new to all this Reasonish things so i experiment with some stuff.
As far as i can see in this forum many users complain about Reason sound engine etc. Well this is not that kind of post since this is not true. 95% of this users dont know how to mix properly so they have muddy and bad mixes (this is especialy true at reasonstation.net)...my two cent for others

Good musician know how to get good mix even with poor tools(if he know them). Bad cant with five superb tools
That is true and that will always be true.

This post is intended for people with good monitor systems, some listening skills and if possible for technical support and answers.

During this i have in my mind famous
-3dB headroom on any sound imported in Reason. This change in volume is not problem on any kind (for me since this can be "fixed" (this is not right word since there is no anything to fix) in last stage of mastering. I see that many users grab this so called issue for major Reason problem but this is pathetic and now even more since we can buy various tools like L3 Ultramaximizer

Again this is a very, very listening test so good monitors are needed, but this can be heared even with some good headphones.

I tested this on Alesis M1 Active MKII and i have pretty good acoustic treatment in room-just to mention. For headphone test i used Sony MDR-V700.
Quality audio card with good ASIO drivers is needed too.

Take my big apologise for bad english. I will try to be clear best i can


Now when i put things in its own direction lets start.

During my testing with Dr.REX i found few things that confuse me so i prepare few examples whish can be downloaded. Links are at the end of post.

Each example is played in .wav and REX. Each example is measured and sliced at my best. Ok i know slicing skills are not important for this but i have a big fun doing this Tempo is set to exact tempo given by Recycle so switching between channels without clipping or any kind of possible audible errors is 0% ) I mean just switching not playing :P

This loops are cutted from CD and despite their genre (techno) i took these few just because they cover some realy low and high frequencies, good quality, and some of them are prety wide in stereo spectrum. This "wide" will be especialy mentioned by the end of post. Oh and this is pretty energy stuff so have a fun

Mixer volume is slightly increased but without any digital distortion. This is again just for listening pourpose. You may set it to 100 if this is too loud for you

- Eaxh sample is played through NN19 - Filter off, high quality interpolation on, volume set to default. NN19 is taked because of its simplicity and as i can hear basic sampling is same as in NN-XT.

- Each sample is played through Dr.REX -Filter off, high quality interpolation on, volume set to default, default slicing setup. I mean without any
kind of effects added in Recycle!


Each examples is played in this order (in pourpose to hear differencies).

First - whole loop through Dr.Rex
Second - whole loop through NN19
Third - swithching between channels.

Example 1: Loop cutted from famous DJ Rolando - Knights Of The Jaguar - i listen this tune on various systems when i need something to setup and i use it even when i need to setup room or for any acoustic need. Because i really know this song and i am very familiar with sound from this tune.
Great rides, congas on right side of spectrum(end of loop), gentle bassline, kick too and this organic sound is soooo wide )). One vord - Great!

Results from Example 1:

When played through NN19 - Sound structure is unchanged. Everything is at right place. Presence is unchanged. Brilliance is just like in original.
No change at all!

Playing through Dr.REX - Overal volume is sligthly decreased. But realy slightly. Pretty highs and lows are mutted or losted in some way. In small
amount but they are losted. Listen how sound is not so much wide. Again, listen carefuly low and high frequencyes.... Presence and brilliance of sound is somewhat losted. It is still there but not in amount like in NN19.

***********

Example 2: Loop cutted from one of Marco Baileys track. This loop is realy heavy on energy and has great kick. High frequencies are covered very well.

Results from Example 2:

When played through NN19 - I will quote myself because it is same - Sound structure is unchanged. Everything is at right place. Presence is same.
No change at all!

Playing through Dr.REX - Again, overal volume is sligthly decreased. Pretty highs and lows are mutted a little. Listen this kick. It dissapear in
REX pretty much. This result is very noticeable if you export both wav and REX in mono and listen in mono.

***********

Example 3: Loop cutted from Tomaz vs Filterheadz - This loop is very good for this pourpose bacause of its deep and low pad, and great organic sound just as in Example 1. There are some other ethno instruments as well.

Results from Example 3:

When played through NN19 - Sound structure is unchanged. Everything is at right place. Presence is unchanged. Brilliance is just like in original.
No change at all!

Playing through Dr.REX - Well...here we can hear those differences very, very well! Listen this deep low pad on wav and REX. Very noticeable.
Same as in other instruments. I think that this can be heared from 20feet distance

**********


/end of testing


Although all this can be compensated in some ways by adding Scream 4 (just turn on from bypass to on) with tape saturation and EQ on, but this is not a long way solution.

Try with your own samples or good and quality loops. My advice, get those from e-lab.

Last thing is if someone is suspicious about this audible errors, anybody can cut loops from familiar tunes and test this alone. This is 1.hour job

So my question is:

Is this a known or unknown Dr.REX bug??
Or REX format is not so loseless as stated?? Maybe there is some quality loss during compression.?? As we can see samples in REX are compressed with pretty good ratio.
Are there any solution for future update??? Like built-in frequency enhancher or something )




----- All of these examples can be downloaded here:

http://www.matvej.com/publicdirectory/rextest/Example 1.rps
http://www.matvej.com/publicdirectory/rextest/Example 2.rps
http://www.matvej.com/publicdirectory/rextest/Example 3.rps

Just copy links to your browser :P

Waiting for answers.....
  #2  
Old 2004-10-12, 00:56
tormod tormod is offline
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 12
Re: Dr.REX sound BUG ? No newbie stuff ;) For mad users only ;)

Try this:
Set the AMP filter settings the same on the Dr. Rex as on the NN-19 (decay@64, Sustain and Release @ 127). I don't know if this REALLY matters, but we're comparing things here...

Then increase the amp level on the Dr.Rex to, say, 106.

Do you still hear it?

Seems to me it's simply a matter of level, and not compression or "wideness".

But I agree, the Dr. Rex seems to be attenuated compared to the NN19.

Have you tried this with the rex files in an NN-XT vs. wav files in the same NN-XT?

Could we get your files to play with?

You COULD get really scientific about it you know - record sinus tone wavs and rex them and compare with oscilloscopes and stuff - I could see myself doing something like that.

Anyway, there are tech-heads here that are much more into it than me who would know if this is a well known issue.

You might want to drop this note in the user forum. Some of the more techy and most helpful people are hiding in there. But, you're not registered. So maybe you should. Register. I'd like to know the answer now that you've pointed this out...

  #3  
Old 2004-10-12, 01:50
kmonkey22
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:)

Try this:
:Set the AMP filter settings the same on the Dr. Rex as on the NN-19 (decay@64, Sustain and Release @ 127). I don't know if this REALLY matters, but we're comparing things here...
:
:Then increase the amp level on the Dr.Rex to, say, 106.
:
o you still hear it?
:

Well....it seems that you have right. Thank you for pointing me in that direction. I didnt notice that with AMP envelope at any point


:Seems to me it's simply a matter of level, and not compression or "wideness".

Yes, now with AMP envelope in my opinion i totaly agree with you. I even cant hear any difference but now is night an i am listening at headphones

:
:But I agree, the Dr. Rex seems to be attenuated compared to the NN19.

Yes only in level i think. I cant hear any difference now
:
:Have you tried this with the rex files in an NN-XT vs. wav files in the same NN-XT?

Did not try but should be exactly same.

:
:Could we get your files to play with?

If you still wanna do this, reply and i will put them tomorrow on server.


:You COULD get really scientific about it you know - record sinus tone wavs and rex them and compare with oscilloscopes and stuff - I could see myself doing something like that.

No no i dont wanna go in this direction. I prefer listening tests What i hear i what i get.

:
:Anyway, there are tech-heads here that are much more into it than me who would know if this is a well known issue.
:
:You might want to drop this note in the user forum. Some of the more techy and most helpful people are hiding in there. But, you're not registered. So maybe you should. Register. I'd like to know the answer now that you've pointed this out...
:

Geez, thanks for that.

This REX format pretty amaze me. Especialy compress ratio.Now this...

Crazy propellerhead stuff )

Thanks again
 

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