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  #1  
Old 2012-02-16, 17:40
foxkitchris foxkitchris is offline
 
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More "Real" Instrument Refills

I would love to see more high quality multi-sampled refills of acoustic instruments and of things we dont have. Orchestral refills, Guitars, Ethic instruments, etc, etc. Good film scoring stuff. I believe we have enough Synth refills (until we get a new synth) and enough drum refills (unless its something like NI Damage or East West Storm Drum2). The props refills that are multisampled like soul school or the more recent ALt Drums sound great, so why not apply that method to other instruments. Alot of third party developers are not going to make these products as refills so I think this is going to be up to the Prop team to develop it or outsource it. Plugins like these are expensive but they sound amazing. If the Props team charged 200-300 dollars for an awesome refill for Reason i would buy it.
If you havent checked out EastWest i highly recommend it. all of their instrument libraries sound amazing and would love that kind of realism in our Reason rack and workflow.
  #2  
Old 2012-02-16, 18:24
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JiggeryPokery JiggeryPokery is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lembeck1 View Post
Guitars
Most users are simply not interested: they want synths, they want to be the next Shrillex. It's not through lack of trying. I've got the Guitars Vol.2 pretty much in the bag: another single guitar, over 5GB over samples, but having tested the waters with the considerably more lightweight Stratocaster ReFill, hardly anyone bought it for £30. I'm not saying PerfStrat is as good as what Props might release, given the facilities available to them, but it's 100 times better than any other straight-up guitar ReFill, and I've bought 'em all.

That's why third party makers don't do more of that kind of stuff: it takes months of work, and they just don't sell in the kind of numbers to justify it.

The Reason market just isn't there for this kind of material. Props have tried it with RDK, REB, RPi and ARK, but I get the distinct impression (from the removal of ARK from that lineup), that sales just ain't there to justify them spending the £20-30,000 minimum it would likely cost to produce a multi-sampled guitar ReFill, you'd be looking at £200 per guitar. And believe me, the 5GB I've got here on vol.2 is still really only scratching the surface, and was a solid month of sampling alone. I'm not convinced it's really worth the effort.
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  #3  
Old 2012-02-16, 18:26
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selig selig is offline
 
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+1 on this.

I wonder exactly what instruments folks are looking for these days?

I would buy: cinematic drums/percussion stuff, celeste, pump organ, BIG strings (with 'sections' as they would be recorded for film) and maybe an update to Reason Strings (which is more solo instruments), Middle Eastern and Asian wind, string and percussion instruments, hammered dulcimer/cymbolum, Irish instruments (whistles, bodhran, uilleann pipes, celtic harp, etc), r&b/funk/pop brass,

IMO…
All of these need a hyper-sampled version and a simple version. The hyper version allows you to have access all of the original microphones/positions that were used in the recording session, so the instruments can appear in the SSL mixer as they would if you had recorded them yourselves (with a great engineer in a very nice studio!). The simple version has many less samples/options, and only mono or stereo outputs, but represents the instrument in a scaled down 'vintage sampler' version.

I should mention that a convolution reverb with 'samples' of famous scoring stages and concert halls (and more, of course) wouldn't hurt either, as far as producing film styles and having flexibility when producing multiple genres. I can just imagine what it would do for even the existing Orkester samples!

For those who are working more as the artist, like those who just make dance music or write songs only for themselves or their band, their needs are more specific and limited to their 'sound'. But for pro songwriters, or especially film/TV and commercial music composers, having access to a large variety of instruments and processing, and being able to create multiple 'spaces' and 'vibes' is vital to producing professional quality commercial music, IMO. :-)
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  #4  
Old 2012-02-16, 18:46
jlgrimes jlgrimes is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by selig View Post
+1 on this.

I wonder exactly what instruments folks are looking for these days?

I would buy: cinematic drums/percussion stuff, celeste, pump organ, BIG strings (with 'sections' as they would be recorded for film) and maybe an update to Reason Strings (which is more solo instruments), Middle Eastern and Asian wind, string and percussion instruments, hammered dulcimer/cymbolum, Irish instruments (whistles, bodhran, uilleann pipes, celtic harp, etc), r&b/funk/pop brass,

IMO…
All of these need a hyper-sampled version and a simple version. The hyper version allows you to have access all of the original microphones/positions that were used in the recording session, so the instruments can appear in the SSL mixer as they would if you had recorded them yourselves (with a great engineer in a very nice studio!). The simple version has many less samples/options, and only mono or stereo outputs, but represents the instrument in a scaled down 'vintage sampler' version.

I should mention that a convolution reverb with 'samples' of famous scoring stages and concert halls (and more, of course) wouldn't hurt either, as far as producing film styles and having flexibility when producing multiple genres. I can just imagine what it would do for even the existing Orkester samples!

For those who are working more as the artist, like those who just make dance music or write songs only for themselves or their band, their needs are more specific and limited to their 'sound'. But for pro songwriters, or especially film/TV and commercial music composers, having access to a large variety of instruments and processing, and being able to create multiple 'spaces' and 'vibes' is vital to producing professional quality commercial music, IMO. :-)

I think more urban producers would cater to the following:

1. Guitars (Acoustic and Electric, with emphasis in cool articulations, slides, wah effects)
2. Orchestral (Emphasis in articulations, pitch runs, hits, stabs, crescendos, Timpani rolls,full ensembles)
3. Brass (full ensembles, stabs, crescendos, hits)
4. Choir (full ensembles, articulations, etc)
5. Organs with Leslie effects
6. World (Chants, shouts, Koto effects, cool percussion)


If done right the top 4 would be huge sellers. Back in the 90s, Roland did something similar to this with their JV range of modules which were highly popular for R&B/urban styles. And they did a great job in sampling cool articulations.

Also, for many styles it is more the quality of the articulations that are sampled rather than the total "realness" of a patch.

Most of those Roland cards were under 8MB but were loaded with cool samples with articulations (things that can't be mimiced too easily on a keyboard.)

Last edited by jlgrimes; 2012-02-16 at 18:48.
  #5  
Old 2012-02-16, 18:50
labyrus labyrus is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 238
I think a lot of it is that the reason market in general is pretty small, and many reason users have other platforms, too. Someone who sells Kontakt sample packs, for example has a bigger user base to sell to than someone who makes refills, so they can price things lower and still make money. The price on any of the good props refills is pretty high, but they have access to the entire user-base in a way that 3rd party makers don't. 3rd party refill makers have to compete with this big market that doesn't have to compete with them.
  #6  
Old 2012-02-16, 18:53
foxkitchris foxkitchris is offline
 
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Posts: 101
Both great points. I bet making these instruments is expensive. thats probably why LA scoring strings is 1000 dollars. But i still think Props could find the happy medium between high quality and affordablility perhaps? especially since using reason in a live setting is so stable, these would be huge not just for scoring but for using as for using as backing tracks or as live instruments. Just saying.....
  #7  
Old 2012-02-16, 19:13
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JiggeryPokery JiggeryPokery is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlgrimes View Post
I think more urban producers would cater to the following:

1. Guitars (Acoustic and Electric, with emphasis in cool articulations, slides, wah effects)
2. Orchestral (Emphasis in articulations, pitch runs, hits, stabs, crescendos, Timpani rolls,full ensembles)
3. Brass (full ensembles, stabs, crescendos, hits)
4. Choir (full ensembles, articulations, etc)
5. Organs with Leslie effects
6. World (Chants, shouts, Koto effects, cool percussion)


If done right the top 4 would be huge sellers.
The cool articulations and slides and mostly importantly the actual ability to play them live are the main feature of the Performance Guitar for Reason Series: it was "done right" but the truth is sales are just not there.

The problem for 3rd Party ReFill-makers, is that a) Reason users don't like paying much for ReFills, and b) most of the sales are via the PropShop, with the 50% hit. Producing the kind of ReFills you're suggesting (and I too would love to see a great hypersampled Brass 'Fill natively in Reason) are huuuugely expensive. Studios are not cheap.

If there was a Reason market, I'm pretty sure the license for Abbey Road Keyboards would have been extended. But actually it was passed to someone else: the cost to Props to renew the license couldn't be justified. And that's bonkers, it was the best ReFill product they've released imo.

As I said, people ask for the stuff, but when 3rd Party guys (and we do talk to each other in private, we've all got the same issues ) take the time and effort and expense to produce the stuff , buyers don't wanna know. So given that, do I invest another £1,000 doing a third product in the series?
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Last edited by JiggeryPokery; 2012-02-16 at 19:47.
  #8  
Old 2012-02-16, 19:24
foxkitchris foxkitchris is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 101
SO True So True. maybe one day. oh well. I would still pay 300 dollars for a good sounding string or ethnic sounding refill. Rather give my business to the props then East West or NI but.........
  #9  
Old 2012-02-16, 19:32
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clarktw clarktw is offline
 
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Posts: 6,280
I’ll take the opportunity to post this instrument device/ReFill request again: give me a Tenor Sax so that I can play this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AStir9kfDiw . I don’t care if it’s a ReFill made with samples, square waves or a ham and cheese omelet as long as it sounds like that and I can play my keyboard/foot pedals/mod wheels like a bat out of hell.

Jiggery’s Strat ReFill is fantastic and I’m sad to hear that it’s not selling well, and that’s hard evidence of the reality of “Supply and Demand”. The ReFill quality is beyond compare, but how many Rap/HipHop/Trance/Dance/Electro artists use guitars? I guess only us Rock/Pop/Contemporary guys do and there don’t seem to be many of us around here.
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  #10  
Old 2012-02-16, 20:02
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Reason1O1 Reason1O1 is offline
 
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This is probably why I stick to creating ReFills that are synth-based, rather than creating complex multi-sampled instruments. I'm not opposed to doing it, but it's not exactly high on my priority list. As all the posters have said, it takes a lot of time, money, etc. that I just don't care to devote to the cause. I don't see a lot of return on my investment.

Then again, I find that releasing a CD can be a complete waste of time and energy too, yet I still do it. Probably because I enjoy it a whole lot more to create songs and actual music, than to create ReFills (not that I don't enjoy sound design too).

If I were looking at it strictly from a money-making venture, I would quit writing songs, tutorials, nix my blog, and instead erect a full ReFill store, and invite everyone to come and sell their wares on my site (and take 25% cut for myself). Then I would feverishly create as many ReFills as I can in a given year and sell them at a fair price. Trust me, I have no shortage of ideas for new ReFills. Then I would market the crap out of it everywhere I could online. This is kind of the idea behind New Atlantis Audio's Rackflip (more or less).

But then I would cease to actually ENJOY what I do. instead, I would rather balance out my passion for Music along with my passion for Sound Design, and my passion for Teaching Creative Reason ideas on my blog. It's my own little simple approach, and it's worked pretty well for me and my lifestyle. If I can offset the costs of all these side projects with my ReFills or selling my music, then I'm more than happy.

But creating a highly specific instrument refill is a very niche market, plain and simple. Unless you are hired by a production company, big refill distributor (sonic foundry or something), or are creating it on commission or something, I can't see any one of us putting them together solely for the money. The ROI is just not there. It won't make money. Now if you are doing it for the sheer passion and joy of doing it, well that's a different story.

Just my 2 centos.

Last edited by Reason1O1; 2012-02-16 at 20:05.
 

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