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  #1  
Old 2012-09-12, 22:23
mr2010 mr2010 is offline
 
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newbie Mixing/Mastering help (long post)

First of all i'd like to warn some that this is a long post and i don't want to offend any of you for my lacking certain mixing fundamentals, so if you can't help a man who's in elementary when it comes to mixing and mastering this thread isn't for you. I think i'm very good at keyboards but I admit I hadn't put much to any effort in learning mixing and mastering. Never thought i needed to. To avoid reading why i hadn't focused on certain aspects of recording, i'll go ahead and present my questions to those- who maybe short on time. thanks


Is there a particular db level i should want to see from my Reason tracks?

Most of the literature i've read seems to be saying the Master Meter shouldn't go above 0 db?
Is that before Mastering and after or? Seems some places say +3db

Should I have Default Mastering enabled while mixing or enable til after i finish mixing? Do you feel its better to export audio and then bring track in for mastering or do you master while mixing? In the Macprovideo I bought, the guy says he likes exporting then importing the mixed file.

Below I have the mastering settings i've used for the past 2 years. If someone who has the time could give me a good range of where my settings should be or a ball park figure if possible. I figure every track is different but if there's a pretty safe setting.

Is the mixing and mastering a big deal for me? I just make beats, i don't have a home studio, i'm not trying to record anybody's album from my setup. I just want to start presenting my music to different artist and labels.

If an artist or label does contact me for my music, the engineers handle the main mixing correct? Pardon me, but i've put years and hours into developing songs, getting better on the keyboards, i never knew nothing about mixing or that being a part of my duties.

That's the end of my main questions, the rest of the hoopla is just me stating how i've used Reason for 4 years and never really did any mastering and lack certain knowledge. I recently bought 2 vids, been reading post and literature on it, but i'm unsure if i really need to spend much time on it right now.

Thanks


So i've used predominantly Reason for the past 4 years. I love making music, i've never released any music, never really tried to solicit my music or anything. In between working 2 jobs, church, my family, and girl friend here and there, my only other obligation has been making music (in particular, rap beat and dance music--using only reason soundbanks). So an associate heard my music, he was like you could definitely be getting paid for some of these songs, i had always wanted to shop my beats but never thought my stuff was complete enough. After seeing several other "producers" make it, who's music i feel is very simple, repetitive, one-sided, etc...(no disrespect intended, just an observation). I felt like maybe i can make a few dollars with some of these songs that i have spent countless hours on.

When i started making beats, i was unaware of compressing or any of that stuff. I heard of Mastering but a remember a producer say, he lets the engineers do all that kind of stuff, their the professionals, he said something about he can spend 3 days mastering it, then the engineers are still going to redo things so i doesn't do any of it. So i thought to myself, yep, i'll let the big boys handle all the compressing and mastering. So for my first 2 years in Reason I never compressed or mastered a thing. Sad to say, i was happy with my sound, especially compared to other software and hardware i had used.
My Roland and My Ensoniq Mr76 never said crap about mastering or compressing. So I always thought that was for people who were actually trying to do professional home recording. Anyways i can't even remember what (maybe i read it or saw a youtube vid or something) made me start with Default Mastering Suite. But, I immediately heard a better sound. So here i was going through hundreds of files i had previously made adding the master suite to them. At that point I added Default Mastering Suite to my template (back in R4).

Fast forward 2 more years into the future to last week... Ok, so now i'm ready to start shopping my music to artist and labels, i'm trying to get the best possible sound. So i've been looking online trying to find literature on better mixes, watched youtube vids, read post when i light bulb when off.....first of all i've never recorded watching my individual levels....like i see many say they record instruments from -6db to -3db or something. I have always watched the master fader to make sure my tracks weren't clipping, but i really watched individual channel settings, long as it sounded good. Before I exported audio, I always tried to get the Master Meter to be close to red but never clipping (usually around what I now know as +3db). My factory system in my car master volume level goes up to 40, on mainstream cds i turn up to about 32 and its loud enough for me! so that's what i always wanted from my cds, to be loud enough without have to turn my car radio to the max. So my question is....where should my track meters be maxing at? when i'm down mixing where should i want the db level on my master fader to be? I've read so many say never above 0db, but if its below 0 db i have to turn my car radio to 40 and its still not loud enough.

I didn't mention mastering in my last paragraph, because I haven't been. All my songs for the past 2 years have used the same Default Mastering Suite settings.

These aren't the Default Mastering Suite settings, so don't ask me how I came up with this setting, but this is the setting that's applied to every song i've made over the past 2 years. Even when going from R5 to R6 I copied the everything over with the same settings and have used these same settings for every song i've done in R6 and R 6.5


loudness curve 1.36


compression 3.38
compression and punch on


low shelf freq 48.2khz


par. 1 freq3.021khz


par2 20.00khz


hi shelf 7.459khz


The gains are all in the middle, q is all over the place.




Stereo Imager is bypassed.




Compressor Threshhold -10.8


ratio 1.79:1


soft clip highlighted and its on 29




I've used the output gain on the compressor to turn my tracks up when doing the final mix, so that and the compressors input gain knobs are the only knobs in the mastering suite i've changed over the past 2 years. So i've recorded hundreds of songs under the settings i listed. From the little I have learned about compression over the past week, my current settings look horrible. I will say, some of my mixes sound ok, so maybe i over-rode those horrible settings by doing a lot of changes with eq?? Anyways the settings i've used, don't ask me how i came up with it, but any suggestions on a good setting to use in the Mastering Suite? I know it'll probably vary with different songs but I good base.


I don't know what's happened to me, i went from having tracks sound decent with 1 or 2 hours of mixing. But, ever since hearing about this db level that db level, mastering, compression, i've found myself spending several hours mixing one song. Then the ultimate is i hear old song that maybe the piano is too loud or synth too loud. A few months ago, a problem like that took my 15 minutes to fix. Last night i go back to 2 songs that had minor issues, i spent 7 hours remixing the 2, only to export audio and the 2 songs sound worse after 7 hours of mixing than they did in the mix i made months ago. i probably made both songs in 3 hours. This kind of stuff has been going on for the past few weeks. i've been remixing songs trying to get some clear sound, i lower volume on 1 track, 3 hours later all my faders are in the minimum, i know have to turn the volumes down from the actual devices (malstrom). Next thing I know the song is too low, so i'm turning up the mastering suite output/input to the max trying to get to 0db.


Now that i'm going back in remixing tracks, i'm catching hell with my drums, in particular the snare. Its too loud i turn it down and it sounds dirty....i wasn't having these problems a few months back.
  #2  
Old 2012-09-12, 22:34
carlgrace's Avatar
carlgrace carlgrace is offline
 
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I would say focus on mixing before you worry too much about Mastering. True, if you're in a studio producing an engineer will probably be mixing but if you want the stuff you make yourself to sound its best, you gotta learn how to mix it.

I'm far from an expert by I can tell you when I got a book about mixing and actually went through it carefully while sitting with Reason trying stuff out my abilities just increased soooo much. My music just *sounds* way better now, it's a lot more open with room to breath and it just fits together better. The book I used was "Mixing Secrets for the Small Studio" by Mike Senior. As far as mixing goes, it changed my life. It really isn't *that* hard to mix things like 90% there on your own. This book will help you get there. For that last 10% that separates us from the pros, well you're on your own.

It's worth your time to learn about mixing. If you give a good mix to a mastering engineer, you'll get an awesome master back. If you give a crappy, bass heavy mix to the engineer, well they don't have anything to work with and you'll be disappointed with the results.
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  #3  
Old 2012-09-12, 23:35
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Lunesis Lunesis is online now
 
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I try to mix with my interface at 40% volume. When I'm happy with that I turn the interface down to 25% andvtry to get it where it was before I turned it down. The general consensus is that you want to use gain to get your tracks around -12 db, then use compression and EQ to get it louder. Try compressing and Eqing individual tracks before the whole thing. Also cutting as much low from the reverb as you can and boosting the mid highs will give you a huge amount of headroom while also increasing percieved loudness.
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Last edited by Lunesis; 2012-09-12 at 23:38.
  #4  
Old 2012-09-13, 01:14
carlgrace's Avatar
carlgrace carlgrace is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunesis View Post
I try to mix with my interface at 40% volume. When I'm happy with that I turn the interface down to 25% andvtry to get it where it was before I turned it down. The general consensus is that you want to use gain to get your tracks around -12 db, then use compression and EQ to get it louder. Try compressing and Eqing individual tracks before the whole thing. Also cutting as much low from the reverb as you can and boosting the mid highs will give you a huge amount of headroom while also increasing percieved loudness.
I agree with everything here and go one step further. Cutting as much low as you can from pretty much every track goes a LONG way to increase headroom and clarity of your mixes. Basically, the way Mike Senior puts it, is put on the HPF on the SSL eq and turn up the cutoff frequency until you can hear a difference, then turn it down a bit. Basically a lot of vocals and instruments and stuff have a lot of low frequency content that we can't really hear, but eats up headroom. Getting rid of it was the number one improvement to my mixes. Seriously huge improvements after like a couple of hours of practice. I cut until it hurts, then back off a step. Works like a charm.
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  #5  
Old 2012-09-13, 01:43
Lunesis's Avatar
Lunesis Lunesis is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlgrace View Post
I agree with everything here and go one step further. Cutting as much low as you can from pretty much every track goes a LONG way
Yes as long as you don't leave too much of a gap or kill your bass like I did in my last mix.
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  #6  
Old 2012-09-13, 05:23
mr2010 mr2010 is offline
 
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Posts: 26
Thanks for all the responses! Carl my copy of "Mixing Secrets for the Small Studio" is set to arrive on Friday! After reading what you said and googling it....i'm sold! I'm pretty excited about it, for some reason mixing has been kicking my behind lately. I had a great song put together but i couldn't get the Kong snare drum right. It was too loud, i turned it down just a notch and it became messy sounding, i searched online, tried using other snares and claps under it, panning hi hats different, compressing---though i didn't i know what i was doing...Tried turning down the bass, going mono on bass, etc...i spent hours just on the drums before i ended up using another snare which i don't like in the particular mix. So i'm looking forward to reading this book, hopefully it will help me solve a lot of problems with my mixes. So its newbie friendly?

Lunesis you say -12db on tracks but when i'm ready to put on cd where should my master meter be?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunesis View Post
I try to mix with my interface at 40% volume. When I'm happy with that I turn the interface down to 25% andvtry to get it where it was before I turned it down. The general consensus is that you want to use gain to get your tracks around -12 db, then use compression and EQ to get it louder. Try compressing and Eqing individual tracks before the whole thing. Also cutting as much low from the reverb as you can and boosting the mid highs will give you a huge amount of headroom while also increasing percieved loudness.
Lunesis you say -12db on tracks but when i'm ready to put on cd where should my master meter be? I guess i need to wait til i get the book because i don't really know what tracks to compress and i don't understand the wide feature, i know it can turn a track mono and it seems like its cuts a lot of reverb from the particular track but going mono hasn't helped me on my drum or bass tracks. Cutting lows also seems to cut the full sound off my basslines (reason's finger bass), it seems to loose its flavor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carlgrace View Post
I agree with everything here and go one step further. Cutting as much low as you can from pretty much every track goes a LONG way to increase headroom and clarity of your mixes. Basically, the way Mike Senior puts it, is put on the HPF on the SSL eq and turn up the cutoff frequency until you can hear a difference, then turn it down a bit. Basically a lot of vocals and instruments and stuff have a lot of low frequency content that we can't really hear, but eats up headroom. Getting rid of it was the number one improvement to my mixes. Seriously huge improvements after like a couple of hours of practice. I cut until it hurts, then back off a step. Works like a charm.
cant wait to the book arrives! One other question. i went in tracktion for the first time in years. I rarely use my microphone, but i was freaked out, how clear my vocals sounded. Like I said i dont use my mic much but i did buy the sterling sts-51, it was my first high end mic (high end to me because i had never paid over $19 for a mic and i paid a little over $100 at GC). Anyways i've had some horrific vocals, i really couldn't notice any difference from my $19 radio shack mic. I searched about the issue and saw i should use effects from the vocal folder, i forget the name, but it really helped, also messing with the eq. I still wasn't happy with my vocals but it would do since i don't do many vocals. I go in Tracktion to record an old school cd for a friend and freaked out, how clear my vocals were. So I imported some songs i did in Reason and my vocals came out great compared to doing vocals in Reason over the same track. No effects or anything running in Tracktion. I'm a little confused at why my vocals sound so much more clear in Tracktion. With all the superb sound i get from Reason, i know there has to be something simple that i'm doing. Anyways thanks for all the help!
  #7  
Old 2012-09-13, 06:18
Lunesis's Avatar
Lunesis Lunesis is online now
 
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Well you want your peaks at 0, how loud it sounds depends on how close the average volume is to the peaks, ie compression.
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  #8  
Old 2012-09-13, 06:52
omshanti20 omshanti20 is offline
 
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  #9  
Old 2012-09-13, 11:44
lyricalvolt's Avatar
lyricalvolt lyricalvolt is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 462
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr2010 View Post
First of all i'd like to warn some that this is a long post and i don't want to offend any of you for my lacking certain mixing fundamentals, so if you can't help a man who's in elementary when it comes to mixing and mastering this thread isn't for you. I think i'm very good at keyboards but I admit I hadn't put much to any effort in learning mixing and mastering. Never thought i needed to. To avoid reading why i hadn't focused on certain aspects of recording, i'll go ahead and present my questions to those- who maybe short on time. thanks


Is there a particular db level i should want to see from my Reason tracks?

Most of the literature i've read seems to be saying the Master Meter shouldn't go above 0 db?
Is that before Mastering and after or? Seems some places say +3db

Should I have Default Mastering enabled while mixing or enable til after i finish mixing? Do you feel its better to export audio and then bring track in for mastering or do you master while mixing? In the Macprovideo I bought, the guy says he likes exporting then importing the mixed file.

Below I have the mastering settings i've used for the past 2 years. If someone who has the time could give me a good range of where my settings should be or a ball park figure if possible. I figure every track is different but if there's a pretty safe setting.

Is the mixing and mastering a big deal for me? I just make beats, i don't have a home studio, i'm not trying to record anybody's album from my setup. I just want to start presenting my music to different artist and labels.

If an artist or label does contact me for my music, the engineers handle the main mixing correct? Pardon me, but i've put years and hours into developing songs, getting better on the keyboards, i never knew nothing about mixing or that being a part of my duties.

That's the end of my main questions, the rest of the hoopla is just me stating how i've used Reason for 4 years and never really did any mastering and lack certain knowledge. I recently bought 2 vids, been reading post and literature on it, but i'm unsure if i really need to spend much time on it right now.

Thanks


So i've used predominantly Reason for the past 4 years. I love making music, i've never released any music, never really tried to solicit my music or anything. In between working 2 jobs, church, my family, and girl friend here and there, my only other obligation has been making music (in particular, rap beat and dance music--using only reason soundbanks). So an associate heard my music, he was like you could definitely be getting paid for some of these songs, i had always wanted to shop my beats but never thought my stuff was complete enough. After seeing several other "producers" make it, who's music i feel is very simple, repetitive, one-sided, etc...(no disrespect intended, just an observation). I felt like maybe i can make a few dollars with some of these songs that i have spent countless hours on.

When i started making beats, i was unaware of compressing or any of that stuff. I heard of Mastering but a remember a producer say, he lets the engineers do all that kind of stuff, their the professionals, he said something about he can spend 3 days mastering it, then the engineers are still going to redo things so i doesn't do any of it. So i thought to myself, yep, i'll let the big boys handle all the compressing and mastering. So for my first 2 years in Reason I never compressed or mastered a thing. Sad to say, i was happy with my sound, especially compared to other software and hardware i had used.
My Roland and My Ensoniq Mr76 never said crap about mastering or compressing. So I always thought that was for people who were actually trying to do professional home recording. Anyways i can't even remember what (maybe i read it or saw a youtube vid or something) made me start with Default Mastering Suite. But, I immediately heard a better sound. So here i was going through hundreds of files i had previously made adding the master suite to them. At that point I added Default Mastering Suite to my template (back in R4).

Fast forward 2 more years into the future to last week... Ok, so now i'm ready to start shopping my music to artist and labels, i'm trying to get the best possible sound. So i've been looking online trying to find literature on better mixes, watched youtube vids, read post when i light bulb when off.....first of all i've never recorded watching my individual levels....like i see many say they record instruments from -6db to -3db or something. I have always watched the master fader to make sure my tracks weren't clipping, but i really watched individual channel settings, long as it sounded good. Before I exported audio, I always tried to get the Master Meter to be close to red but never clipping (usually around what I now know as +3db). My factory system in my car master volume level goes up to 40, on mainstream cds i turn up to about 32 and its loud enough for me! so that's what i always wanted from my cds, to be loud enough without have to turn my car radio to the max. So my question is....where should my track meters be maxing at? when i'm down mixing where should i want the db level on my master fader to be? I've read so many say never above 0db, but if its below 0 db i have to turn my car radio to 40 and its still not loud enough.

I didn't mention mastering in my last paragraph, because I haven't been. All my songs for the past 2 years have used the same Default Mastering Suite settings.

These aren't the Default Mastering Suite settings, so don't ask me how I came up with this setting, but this is the setting that's applied to every song i've made over the past 2 years. Even when going from R5 to R6 I copied the everything over with the same settings and have used these same settings for every song i've done in R6 and R 6.5


loudness curve 1.36


compression 3.38
compression and punch on


low shelf freq 48.2khz


par. 1 freq3.021khz


par2 20.00khz


hi shelf 7.459khz


The gains are all in the middle, q is all over the place.




Stereo Imager is bypassed.




Compressor Threshhold -10.8


ratio 1.79:1


soft clip highlighted and its on 29




I've used the output gain on the compressor to turn my tracks up when doing the final mix, so that and the compressors input gain knobs are the only knobs in the mastering suite i've changed over the past 2 years. So i've recorded hundreds of songs under the settings i listed. From the little I have learned about compression over the past week, my current settings look horrible. I will say, some of my mixes sound ok, so maybe i over-rode those horrible settings by doing a lot of changes with eq?? Anyways the settings i've used, don't ask me how i came up with it, but any suggestions on a good setting to use in the Mastering Suite? I know it'll probably vary with different songs but I good base.


I don't know what's happened to me, i went from having tracks sound decent with 1 or 2 hours of mixing. But, ever since hearing about this db level that db level, mastering, compression, i've found myself spending several hours mixing one song. Then the ultimate is i hear old song that maybe the piano is too loud or synth too loud. A few months ago, a problem like that took my 15 minutes to fix. Last night i go back to 2 songs that had minor issues, i spent 7 hours remixing the 2, only to export audio and the 2 songs sound worse after 7 hours of mixing than they did in the mix i made months ago. i probably made both songs in 3 hours. This kind of stuff has been going on for the past few weeks. i've been remixing songs trying to get some clear sound, i lower volume on 1 track, 3 hours later all my faders are in the minimum, i know have to turn the volumes down from the actual devices (malstrom). Next thing I know the song is too low, so i'm turning up the mastering suite output/input to the max trying to get to 0db.


Now that i'm going back in remixing tracks, i'm catching hell with my drums, in particular the snare. Its too loud i turn it down and it sounds dirty....i wasn't having these problems a few months back.
Boy, you're in the process of learning. You may get confused @ times but its all normal. Believe in yourself always.
Good level practices state that an entire mix should be around -3dB (or lower, up to -6dB). I don't think its a good practice pulling down your master fader to achieve this. If you find yourself doing that then be sure that some individual channel faders are kicking you in the butt.
I advice you remove every 'mastering' devices you have in your master section insert fx box. recording, tracking, editing, and ultimately mixing are enough for one head. They really should be, and on that note I advice you 1: leave mastering for a pro 2: master (not bad if you wanna have a try) outside Reason, period! You need real meters telling you real things and more.
Each piece of music has its own loudness potential. Mastering is one place commercial loudness (depending on the music style or genre) is chased and achieved. Trying to master a mix in the mix stage means inviting trouble.
You talked about mixing for many hours and your stuff seeming to sound worse after it all. Well, when you listen to sound for long hours your brain adapts to its imperfections and everything begins to sound cool! Mixing is one area decisions need to be made real quick - especially when EQ-ing. Give yourself a break and maybe play some of your favourite CDs. Or rest your ears for some hours. My ears are my most valued tools as a sound engineer.
Most mix engineers prefer starting the mix with the drums. I favour this style. The drums, snares, perc, and bass constitute the basic rhythym section of most modern songs.
LEVELS: For the kick drums (NY compressed or not) a good reference is between -12 and -10 on the SL master fader meter, given that the mode is set to VU (blue on the left) and PEAK (orange on the right). If its too low then turn up the fader on your audio interface or monitors. They were made for this.
Next try matching up the snare to the drums. Introduce other percusive stuff and then the bass. If this section is playing well and fine together and hitting a bit into the yellow area on your master fader meter as set above, you're likely good to go. Fire up the other instruments and match their levels with the rhythm section. Listen, listen, and listen for the right balance.
Red means bad in the digital domain. Analog guys can get around Red with analog gears but not digital heads in the digital realm.
Compression is largely a matter of taste but please read up all you can on this subject. It has some downsides which include introducing compression artifacts and taking away the 'life' in an instrument or voice, or making it sound bland!
I hope I've helped a little.
Thanks.
__________________
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http://www.beatsbyvt.com
www.twitter.com/beatsbyvt
  #10  
Old 2012-09-13, 11:45
lyricalvolt's Avatar
lyricalvolt lyricalvolt is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 462
Boy, you're in the process of learning. You may get confused @ times but its all normal. Believe in yourself always.
Good level practices state that an entire mix should be around -3dB (or lower, up to -6dB). I don't think its a good practice pulling down your master fader to achieve this. If you find yourself doing that then be sure that some individual channel faders are kicking you in the butt.
I advice you remove every 'mastering' devices you have in your master section insert fx box. recording, tracking, editing, and ultimately mixing are enough for one head. They really should be, and on that note I advice you 1: leave mastering for a pro 2: master (not bad if you wanna have a try) outside Reason, period! You need real meters telling you real things and more.
Each piece of music has its own loudness potential. Mastering is one place commercial loudness (depending on the music style or genre) is chased and achieved. Trying to master a mix in the mix stage means inviting trouble.
You talked about mixing for many hours and your stuff seeming to sound worse after it all. Well, when you listen to sound for long hours your brain adapts to its imperfections and everything begins to sound cool! Mixing is one area decisions need to be made real quick - especially when EQ-ing. Give yourself a break and maybe play some of your favourite CDs. Or rest your ears for some hours. My ears are my most valued tools as a sound engineer.
Most mix engineers prefer starting the mix with the drums. I favour this style. The drums, snares, perc, and bass constitute the basic rhythym section of most modern songs.
LEVELS: For the kick drums (NY compressed or not) a good reference is between -12 and -10 on the SL master fader meter, given that the mode is set to VU (blue on the left) and PEAK (orange on the right). If its too low then turn up the fader on your audio interface or monitors. They were made for this.
Next try matching up the snare to the drums. Introduce other percusive stuff and then the bass. If this section is playing well and fine together and hitting a bit into the yellow area on your master fader meter as set above, you're likely good to go. Fire up the other instruments and match their levels with the rhythm section. Listen, listen, and listen for the right balance.
Red means bad in the digital domain. Analog guys can get around Red with analog gears but not digital heads in the digital realm.
Compression is largely a matter of taste but please read up all you can on this subject. It has some downsides which include introducing compression artifacts and taking away the 'life' in an instrument or voice, or making it sound bland!
I hope I've helped a little.
Thanks.
__________________
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www.twitter.com/beatsbyvt
 

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