Propellerhead Software
  #11  
Old 2013-01-22, 15:19
devilfish's Avatar
devilfish devilfish is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 2,076
Quote:
Originally Posted by dacess123 View Post
@devilfish

hmmm, what idea is this then? :-)
Recording with 192KHZ

and then timestrech.. and then back to 44,1KHZ

it Sounds much better as a timestrech with 44,1KHZ recorded material
  #12  
Old 2013-01-25, 17:07
dacess123 dacess123 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 252
I hear you Selig. To me Thor sounds perfect, and these days I usually filter a lot of the hi-freq whilst mixing and use some deliberate noise/hiss right at the end. But, Scream definitely sounds more detailed at 88200. I'm not sure what affect it would have on other devices. At the moment, RPDistort has taken much of Scream's "limelight" for me :-), but I still prefer the Tape Saturation on Scream...
__________________
Check out the links below to hear Music I've made using Reason!

http://www.patrickjay.co.uk/
http://soundcloud.com/search?q%5Bfulltext%5D=patrickjay
  #13  
Old 2013-01-25, 17:54
selig's Avatar
selig selig is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 10,517
Quote:
Originally Posted by dacess123 View Post
I hear you Selig. To me Thor sounds perfect, and these days I usually filter a lot of the hi-freq whilst mixing and use some deliberate noise/hiss right at the end. But, Scream definitely sounds more detailed at 88200. I'm not sure what affect it would have on other devices. At the moment, RPDistort has taken much of Scream's "limelight" for me :-), but I still prefer the Tape Saturation on Scream...
From what little I know about DSP, all processes should should pretty much alike at all sample rates. So if oversampling is what allows this to happen, I'm all for it! :-)
__________________
Giles Reaves, aka 'selig'
Audio Illusionist, Musical Technologist
Selig Audio, LLC
USA
  #14  
Old 2013-01-25, 20:28
eXode's Avatar
eXode eXode is online now
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,489
Quote:
Originally Posted by selig View Post
Here's my confusion: oversampling addresses aliasing. When Predator came out I compared it's aliasing to Thor and Predator was much worse (Thor was quite impressive, btw). Predator has been updated, and my trial expired before I could compare them again, but still…

Problem for me is, Predator has 32x oversampling and Thor (supposedly) has none. So I'm confused why folks think that oversampling will automagically fix things that in some cases aren't even an issue in the first place? As always, I'm open to the fact I may be mis-representing the issue here or unaware of things that could have led me to different conclusions…

So my question is; in exchange for the CPU hit, what do you expect oversampling to do for you?
It's not that simple. I really hate to bring this topic up in public but the Predator issue might have been due to bad coding. In short, as far as I understood, not the entire chain of Predator was oversampled, only the oscillators (and then an option for the filter, on the VSTi that is). This might have contributed to that fact (i.e. what's the point of only oversampling the oscillators if the other stuff happen at normal audio rate?). Fwiw, I don't know what they did but that update to Predator did improve the waveforms/reduce aliasing overall.

Other developers have stated (not about Predator, but oversampling in general) that it is not just about having X amount of oversampling. Depending on the synth layout you might need to downsample as well. I.e. oversample oscillators, downsample before it goes into the filter oversample inside the filter, etc.

But, all that said and done. The thing that actually speaks FOR oversampling when it comes to Reason devices in particular is that some of them actually sound better when running at an higher audio rate (i.e. both Subtractor and Thor sound more detailed/alias less at i.e. 96 kHz compared to 44.1 kHz) Thor is less prone to aliasing artifacts in the FM Pair Osc when running at higher rate as well.
  #15  
Old 2013-01-27, 16:33
dacess123 dacess123 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 252
I did notice an improvement in the sound of the Subtractor too actually but not really with Thor... But then again I don't do much with Thor (definitely not to the same depth as you Exode!) mainly bass, low pads and mid range synths and I don't think low freq's are subject to much aliasing.

I am a bit concerned about the potential CPU hit. I'm running an AMD Quad Core with 4 gigs ram and I can quickly max things out ever since the introduction of RE's (not complaining, just saying...), so oversampling might tip things over the edge.
__________________
Check out the links below to hear Music I've made using Reason!

http://www.patrickjay.co.uk/
http://soundcloud.com/search?q%5Bfulltext%5D=patrickjay
  #16  
Old 2013-01-27, 16:47
selig's Avatar
selig selig is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 10,517
Quote:
Originally Posted by eXode View Post
It's not that simple. I really hate to bring this topic up in public but the Predator issue might have been due to bad coding. In short, as far as I understood, not the entire chain of Predator was oversampled, only the oscillators (and then an option for the filter, on the VSTi that is). This might have contributed to that fact (i.e. what's the point of only oversampling the oscillators if the other stuff happen at normal audio rate?). Fwiw, I don't know what they did but that update to Predator did improve the waveforms/reduce aliasing overall.

Other developers have stated (not about Predator, but oversampling in general) that it is not just about having X amount of oversampling. Depending on the synth layout you might need to downsample as well. I.e. oversample oscillators, downsample before it goes into the filter oversample inside the filter, etc.

But, all that said and done. The thing that actually speaks FOR oversampling when it comes to Reason devices in particular is that some of them actually sound better when running at an higher audio rate (i.e. both Subtractor and Thor sound more detailed/alias less at i.e. 96 kHz compared to 44.1 kHz) Thor is less prone to aliasing artifacts in the FM Pair Osc when running at higher rate as well.
I agree on all points - with the Predator update it sounds as good as Thor to me. But Thor doesn't have over-sampleing at all IIRC, and Predator was supposed to sound better because of it's oversampling due to less aliasing (the reason for oversampling). I'm specifically speaking of oversampling on the oscillators here, and I turned off filters during my comparisons so only one oscillator was being tested in each synth.

To me, Thor's filters sound better at higher sample rates in one specific condition - when they are wide open (since they can open FURTHER with a higher sample rate). And if you set them so they produce the same response on a spectrum analyzer they will sound the same, even at a higher sample rate (or at least that was my experience). :-)
__________________
Giles Reaves, aka 'selig'
Audio Illusionist, Musical Technologist
Selig Audio, LLC
USA
  #17  
Old 2013-02-04, 00:07
SonicDimension SonicDimension is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 113
Distortion is probably one of the DSP tasks where oversampling is most beneficial because it introduces a lot of higher-frequency harmonics. At the standard sample rate of 44.1 kHz, the Nyquist frequency is 22.05 kHz. Any harmonics above this point will fold back into the audible range as ugly aliasing noises. When you go to higher sampling rates like 96 kHz+, the amount of energy above the Nyquist frequency is significantly lower and the stuff that is there will mostly fold back into inaudible frequencies. You can easily hear the difference by using Scream 4 at different sample rate settings. You can also see the amount of aliasing on a spectrum analyzer.

I think the aliasing issues should be less significant on synth oscillators unless you are using unfiltered oscillators with a lot of high frequency harmonics (like sawtooth) and playing on the highest keys. Of course, if the synth uses any sort of clipping/filter drive, etc. then it will probably introduce some aliasing from that. Aliasing in synths is a bigger issue in FM because of the large amount of high frequency harmonics. Try playing some FM patches at two different sample rates and they might sound completely different.

I would recommend that Propellerhead implement oversampling switches on every device, but particularly on devices that use distortion algorithms like Scream 4, Pulveriser, Echo, Line6 amp models, etc. The CPU hit should not be a problem because most users can disable the switches during tracking and only switch it on for select devices when they render the audio.
  #18  
Old 2013-02-04, 23:12
concep's Avatar
concep concep is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 615
Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicDimension View Post

I would recommend that Propellerhead implement oversampling switches on every device, but particularly on devices that use distortion algorithms like Scream 4, Pulveriser, Echo, Line6 amp models, etc. The CPU hit should not be a problem because most users can disable the switches during tracking and only switch it on for select devices when they render the audio.
Totally Agree!
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Scream 4 (again) nega9000 General Forum (read only) 0 2006-06-30 20:40
Bypassing Scream in Aux Rox ctreitzell General Forum (read only) 0 2003-06-24 13:43
Scream on my guitar! millionVALVE General Forum (read only) 8 2003-05-17 00:01


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 22:33.