Propellerhead Software
  #1  
Old 2013-07-29, 19:26
lejalle's Avatar
lejalle lejalle is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 226
Wink Additive synth should be possible ?!

reading the thread https://www.propellerheads.se/forum/...d.php?t=139326
I was wondering that now that we have PX7 for FM and Revival for "additive organ synthesis and more", it should be possible that the next synth will be an additive synth with the ability to change each partial (Noxious is ok but apparently you can't deal with a specific harmonic). A sort of descendant of the RMI HS and Kawaï K5[000] !
(btw the pics in the above thread don'y show anymore : too bad !)
  #2  
Old 2013-07-29, 19:49
selig's Avatar
selig selig is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 10,500
Separate control over each partial, especially as you go well over 100 partials, is a PITA IMO. For these types of sounds to be interesting, again IMO, you need to be controlling many partials at once, which isn't feasible with individual controls. Just to make a patch sound slightly brighter means individually adjusting tens or even hundreds of partial controls at once, which is pretty much impossible with individual faders.

On top of that, 'drawing' the partial's faders requires you understand the relationship with the partials level and phase to the audible results, which is difficult at best for most.

I think synths like Noxious are being extremely clever by giving you control over groups of partials, allowing more interesting tonal adjustments then trying to specify each partial's level/phase on it's own. You can still increase/decrease an individual partial's level with Noxious if you like, using the most narrow settings.

What I'm interested in seeing is further advances in CONTROL of ALL partials in musical and useful ways, rather than having to draw hundreds of partial's levels just to create one static waveform. IMO it's these advances, if they allow intuitive control, that will go beyond the static waves that additive synthesis has been known for in the past. Seems like that's the area that folks are trying to address, either by morphing/crossfading between waves ala the Camel Audio Cameleon 5000, or by techniques like Noxious uses.

I have my own ideas for addressing these issues, and hopefully there will be some additional future innovations that takes additive synthesis beyond just a way to draw complex waveforms by specifying individual partial's levels and phase. :-)
__________________
Giles Reaves, aka 'selig'
Audio Illusionist, Musical Technologist
Selig Audio, LLC
USA
  #3  
Old 2013-07-30, 05:26
colcifer's Avatar
colcifer colcifer is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,523
Quote:
Originally Posted by selig View Post
I have my own ideas for addressing these issues
Go on... How does Razor, which gets so much praise, do it? Or is it just a particularly fancy implementation of subtractive synthesis (what it looks like, to me)?
  #4  
Old 2013-08-01, 01:24
colcifer's Avatar
colcifer colcifer is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,523
Bump. asdfjsa;dflkj
  #5  
Old 2013-08-01, 02:05
selig's Avatar
selig selig is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 10,500
Quote:
Originally Posted by colcifer View Post
Go on... How does Razor, which gets so much praise, do it? Or is it just a particularly fancy implementation of subtractive synthesis (what it looks like, to me)?
Razor is based on additive synthesis from what little I know of it. :-)
__________________
Giles Reaves, aka 'selig'
Audio Illusionist, Musical Technologist
Selig Audio, LLC
USA
  #6  
Old 2013-08-01, 14:47
lejalle's Avatar
lejalle lejalle is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 226
Razor is apparently based on an additive heart but it shows some "well known" modules to the user, such as filters and FX. You can't access the harmonics per se so using it fells more like using a substrative synth.

I understand the argument that having to set all the harmonics is quite laborious. But perhaps the fun can be had with not so much hanmonics. I'm trying Revival at the moment and it is very good not only for organ sounds but for other kind of sounds. It makes me fell it is ok to build sounds with "only" 10 harmonics moving from attack thru to release. And thanks to the modifiers more harmonic components can be added. In fact it is really a good "additive" synth. It could be presented that way and not as an "organ and more" or a "drawbar synth".

I've wasted some time sketching a new layout for Revival, put away the FX section (which could be sell as a dedicated RE) and rename the synth "ReAdd" (the idea came from the fact I don't like the wood panels and the overall look and also some people on the forum are complaining about the look of Revival). No ambition here, no finshed work, I'm not a designer. Just if Sonomics could proposed a "synth oriented" version of Revival.. I'll buy it !
Attached Images
File Type: jpg image.jpg (102.3 KB, 17 views)
  #7  
Old 2013-08-01, 15:45
joseydeclaire joseydeclaire is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 680
I think too, Noxious is very clever and in that moment you find the point how it works (and it does fine, one or two things, I´m hoping will come in an Upgrade) you´ll see you can do many sounds like K5. And it is not as hard to understand how Noxious works. I think it´s very simple to understand and I like it
__________________
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Software working with:
* MAC & PC *: Reason / Recycle / Reason Ess. (7.01 / 2 / 2.01), Ableton Live-Suite 8, Harrison Mixbus 2.3.1, Reaper, ReNoise, MuTools, Energy-XT, MOTU BPM (with / and all Plugs from MOTU), MakeMusic Finale 2012, NanoStudio - * PC *: Samplitude Pro (Favo on PC !), Cakewalk: Project 5 / Sonar XPro, FL-Studio (complete with many of those Plugs) - * MAC *: LogicPro 9.18, MOTU DP 7.24 (My Favo on MAC) - * Apple IOS-Musicsoftware *: simply All ...
* VST/AU *: All MOTU-Plugs, all AAS-Plugs, NI FM8 & P5 & B4, Arturia Moog V & MiniMoog & CS80 & Arp 2600, ImpOscar, Korg digital & analog Edition, CMS Hall & Masterplugs, Cakewalk DimensionPro & Rapture, Waldorf Edition, Synapse Dune and more
* REFILLS *: Over 98 GB of "Original"-ReFills (Props / Soundcells / Reasonbanks / SonicR. / Mirosl. / SonicF. / Synth X ... ... Mostly use own programmed Sounds) - * RE´s *: Some ...
* - Propellerhead-User since ReBirth (Steinberg), Reason-/ReCycle-User since V.1 - * / since 1986 Progr. / Develop. / BTest / Brainst

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
  #8  
Old 2013-08-01, 15:53
eXode's Avatar
eXode eXode is online now
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,486
One additive synth that is very cool is Image-Line Harmor. It uses additive synthesis but is laid out like a subtractive synth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Image-Line
Harmor is driven by a powerful additive synthesis engine. Its modules will look familiar to subtractive synthesizer enthusiasts: oscillators, filters & phasers, these are featured in Harmor but, because performed through additive synthesis, offer more freedom. You don't just select filter types, you draw them.
  #9  
Old 2013-08-01, 20:00
selig's Avatar
selig selig is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 10,500
Quote:
Originally Posted by lejalle View Post
Razor is apparently based on an additive heart but it shows some "well known" modules to the user, such as filters and FX. You can't access the harmonics per se so using it fells more like using a substrative synth.

I understand the argument that having to set all the harmonics is quite laborious. But perhaps the fun can be had with not so much hanmonics. I'm trying Revival at the moment and it is very good not only for organ sounds but for other kind of sounds. It makes me fell it is ok to build sounds with "only" 10 harmonics moving from attack thru to release. And thanks to the modifiers more harmonic components can be added. In fact it is really a good "additive" synth. It could be presented that way and not as an "organ and more" or a "drawbar synth".

I've wasted some time sketching a new layout for Revival, put away the FX section (which could be sell as a dedicated RE) and rename the synth "ReAdd" (the idea came from the fact I don't like the wood panels and the overall look and also some people on the forum are complaining about the look of Revival). No ambition here, no finshed work, I'm not a designer. Just if Sonomics could proposed a "synth oriented" version of Revival.. I'll buy it !
Good points, to which I will add that it's just not "setting" the harmonics that is laborious, it's animating them in a musical way so you don't just end up with a static waveform, cool as it may be. That's my main point.

While there are indeed "filters" in Razor and Noxious, there's a big difference in doing filtering etc at the harmonic level vs filtering the audio signal. For one thing, a true "brick wall" filter is actually possible. In fact, when specifying the total number of harmonics you are in essence doing brick wall filtering. In these cases you are not literally filtering the audio signal, rather, you are specifying the range and level of individual harmonics "as a group". This approach allows you to control vast numbers of harmonics with one or two controls, creating more real-time animated patches than previous additive synths were capable of creating IMO. :-)
__________________
Giles Reaves, aka 'selig'
Audio Illusionist, Musical Technologist
Selig Audio, LLC
USA
  #10  
Old 2013-08-01, 20:06
lejalle's Avatar
lejalle lejalle is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 226
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by eXode View Post
One additive synth that is very cool is Image-Line Harmor. It uses additive synthesis but is laid out like a subtractive synth.
Harmless is cool also and you have what resembles "partial access" (the mask). And the UI seems to fit well with the current UI possibilities of RE.
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Forum Song Challenges - Challenge V: Synth Nation - The Launch FailedMuso Phead User Forum (read only) 310 2012-05-11 09:17
Selig Additive Synth Combinator from MMM realblaze Phead User Forum (read only) 4 2012-04-27 05:20


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:15.