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  #1  
Old 2007-06-21, 13:32
electrofux electrofux is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 860
This audio issue is not handled well by the props -long post

-please skip this post if you are annoyed by the audio discussion and just want to let out something like "get a rewire host, "reason is not a swiss knife", "or it is what it is"-

Hi,

i couldn't resist summing this whole audio bsht up as this thing is turning up with the same arguments for the xth time.

Audio in Reason is neither a religion nor
some ideologic bsht, it is what a lot of people here want to see in Reason for years because working with audio files is something quite natural in a studiolike environment and in Reason it is obviously not supported very well.
It has to be handled like in the hardware samplers that they originally wanted to replace (via Sample triggering) or you have to get a host from a competitor and use another sequencer (perverting Reasons workflow and stability), or you have to slice up audio which is not always possible and can lead to sonic degradation.

Some facts are:

- It is the biggest single wish of the community
(go and count the suggestions on the topic audio- there also are questions "can i record vocals?" every second day)
Even if is not the biggest wish it is one really big wish!

- It is common technology and not so overly hard to implement (the stuff they did for 2.5, 3.0 and 4.0 is harder to develop)- i have that from someone who worked on Reason.

-They have just updated the sequencer (a thing that they didn't even intend or liked for 1.0) so it could have flown in using synergy effects minimizing the time needed for other cool stuff.

-it wouldn't change the layout of Reason as much and fundamental as VST support would do.

- It wouldn't harm the ones who don't want it (though most(!) of the ones eagerly to jump in and say "no i hope they don't implement audio" are imho what is considerd as fanboys, who can't stand someone criticizing their favourite app). Anyone now has to adjust to the new sequencer anyways and if you use other apps in an audio context then you see that they don't crash as long as you don't load up buggy VSTs

- It even fits in what has been put out by the props as the ideas behind Reason
namely replace hardware, self containment, good workflow.

-there where suggestions like diskstreaming for the samplers that could have been used to help those audio whiners out without giving in to the request (if that is the problem) and implementing audiotracks.

After such a long time of requesting, they still haven't given any further information on this topc.
Especially if you consider that this 2003 interview with Ernst is pretty much the only explanation why the biggest wish of their userbase (in terms of requests) is not being fulfilled and this "just another Cubase answer" is (sorry to say that) one really illogical answer.
How can adding something that nearly every other audio product with a sequencer has and that is common sense in music production, make the situation worse for Reason.
I mean, they have just added an arpeggeiator right now, which has been in Cubase for years, so after that logic Reason is now a "me too" product.
And this whole "we don't want to compete with the others that have audio" is another myth. They are competing already with Live, Fruity Loops, Project 5, Cubase etc with or without audio.
Nobody is going to buy Reason BECAUSE it has no audio support.
Also the props have changed their mind on the way Reason developed in the past. The mastering suite eg was developed because of people complaining about "low levels" in Reason. What a reason is that compared to people complaining about missing audio support.

Now that this is finnaly not fulfilled after years it would be about time for the bosses to at least give some understandable reasons
if this is final and why it is that way. Everything else can be subsummized under the category "not caring about what the userbase wants".

This is it, i have fired out all my arguments again and i most probably won't show up outside this thread as i don't really think we see a change here.

electrofux
  #2  
Old 2007-06-21, 14:45
golemxiii golemxiii is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 4
Re: Good points

Hi electrofux,

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think it will be the first time that Prop will loose a lot of users. Why ?

A lot of people claim that if you want audio tracks, use Live, Cubase, etc...

And they did.

It's why people doesn't care seq improvments. Because they have all they need in Live, Cubase, etc..

Reason is a wonderfull app because it can handles a lot of modules with few CPU load. But... in one or two years, does it mean anything ? With cheap quad processor computers, VST3, etc...

Live, for example is a wonderfull application.

A lot of users use Live + Reason. But perhaps in one or two years, the same users will only use Live, because team behind this software listen to their users. That's why ther's a lot of update for this application.

Finally, audio track or not, it doesn't matter. The only important thing is to enjoy making music, whatever the app you use.

And if reason desappear (and sadly I think it will), does it matter ?

Me.

  #3  
Old 2007-06-21, 15:50
Koshdukai's Avatar
Koshdukai Koshdukai is offline
 
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Posts: 4,069
Reason 4 = tempo, MIDI & CV, maybe Reason 5 = Audio ?

: i couldn't resist summing this whole audio bsht up as this thing is turning up with the same arguments for the xth time.
:

Good post.

What I'm about to say is just my feeling about this whole thing. I my be way off on this, but, as you mention, I guess the Propellerheads are starting to, slowly, adjust the initial plans about Reason.

The market has reached a point where "the others" will soon catch up to the ease of use and stability of Reason either by refactoring their code to get more performance out of it or by pure availability of more CPU speed and memory as years go by.

So, I think Propellerheads must know this, that's why they haven't been resting and spent these years rebuilding Reason "from scratch" so to better be prepared for things to come in the near future.

The ReGroove and the new Sequencer are the the first fruits of that.

Again, I may be way wrong but I'm expecting for shorter development cycles for 4.5 and maybe 5.0

So, if Reason 4 is all about tempo, MIDI and CV (ok, and a new super synth), I guess Reason 5 will be all about audio.

because... what's there to add, besides those little annoying things still missing or in need of a fix or improvement already mentioned in the feature suggestions forum ? Yup, the only big thing missing is Audio IN, Audio Recording, direct audio sampling and Audio tracks.

[dream mode on]

So, I'm expecting that Reason 5 will be all about audio, audio, audio and audio.

When ? 1 to 2 years from now

And who knows ? Eventually they'll even open up to the VST world, by including a Combinator-like VST host.
You know, the kind of device that only those who want to use it will add to the rack ?

[/dream mode off]

...exactly the same as the ReBirth Machine Input device that 50% of the users don't know what's it for ;P
but it's a godsend for those using ASIO4ALL Audio IN "hack" (or Hammer)


So, to clarify, I'm very happy with Reason 4, I think it's a very exciting (and much needed) upgrade to Reason 3, but I know there's still more to do *in the future*.

*OR* they're already preping up a Reason 4 companion application to deal with audio ...you know, the famous "ReCord". Time will tell...

phew... now let me check if this post was even longer than yours ;P
  #4  
Old 2007-06-21, 16:19
nobeahmon's Avatar
nobeahmon nobeahmon is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,379
Re: Good points

You have made some good points. However many here say people have moved from Reason to Live, cubase etc. NOT TRUE. I bought Live and Reason together but to tell you the truth I rarely open Live. Why? I love the devices in Reason. Nothing in live comes close. Nothing!

Live is good at what it does very good for composing but Reasons work flow and modular vibe keeps me in one place. A 14 track audio in device to compliment ReMix would be nice, we all know audio in is needed but that will not stop me from using Reason thats for sure. I just hope they don't implement VST support thats all.
Cerebral Beats
  #5  
Old 2007-06-21, 16:24
DexStar's Avatar
DexStar DexStar is offline
 
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Posts: 74
Re: Reason 4 = tempo, MIDI & CV, maybe Reason 5 = Audio ?

reason only needs to be a rewire-master... thats the way to go in my eyes! as you said, the rebirth input mashine is there and its clearly a rewire-host (you get a message when you start "live" and it's on rack: "another rewire-host is online - please switch it off...").

boost it up a little and we can use live in rewire-SLAVE-mode (it's new in live 6). that means: VSTi from live TO reason devices... thats the way to get outsite-sound into reason and kick it through our loved combinator-effect-patches or just have it connected to our mixers...
and even audio IN is possible that way - just do it with live and send it's sound to reason.

that would be the most elegant way! nearly rar work to do and satisfiing many users...

(btw. i wonder why the master-product of the developer of rewire is only rewire-slave - lol)
DexStar - founder and leader of the biggest german musician website.
  #6  
Old 2007-06-21, 16:35
electrofux electrofux is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 860
Re: Reason 4 = tempo, MIDI & CV, maybe Reason 5 = Audio ?

But that would only solve the audio in problem (not the audiotrack issue that is essential if you want to use Reason alone and nothing else). There is also a (rather set up intensive) PC solution with Hammer.
But the Flagship app of the inventors of Rewire should be a Master that is for sure.
Never understood this slave mentality (same goes for Midi-clock-slave).

electrofux
  #7  
Old 2007-06-21, 16:52
DexStar's Avatar
DexStar DexStar is offline
 
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Posts: 74
Re: Reason 4 = tempo, MIDI & CV, maybe Reason 5 = Audio ?

you're right! i also like to have only ONE program, but they don't want that.... the "rewire-way" is a compromise between both. as you can see, the props like going their own way - and that way says "no audio in, no vst, no midi out..." - you can read that at the interview from 2003. ok, let them go this way, but they should try to satisfy the asking users, and rewire could be the solution...

yes, i already can use rewire, but i don't like to rewire my final mastered sound to an outside-program only to get another fresh sound into it... this is nonsense!
NO, i want to get that sound direct into reason. reason is NOT my slave app, it's my MASTER!
DexStar - founder and leader of the biggest german musician website
  #8  
Old 2007-06-21, 16:55
electrofux electrofux is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 860
Re: Good points

Yes, Reason has the best workflow of all and that's why i could always die in anger when i still have to use rewire because of the missing audiotracks. Because then that workflow is ruined.

I tried Live and i would have bought it but the Remote Controller Implementation which is responsible for 50% of Reasons next-to-perfect workflow is crap.

I wouldn't write such long posts if there is an easy substitue for Reason.

But anyways if Reason could playback audiotracks it would solve 90% of the audio debate and would be head of the competition.

But i am also critcizing the way the props handle an issue of such importance for their customer base.

electrofux
  #9  
Old 2007-06-21, 17:17
electrofux electrofux is offline
 
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Posts: 860
Re: Reason 4 = tempo, MIDI & CV, maybe Reason 5 = Audio ?

:i also like to have only ONE program, but they don't want that

That is what no one can really understand. Why wouldn't a company like to have their users only use their program and give a shit about their competititors?
How much money do they earn with rewire licenses?
Is it that?! Keep Reason that nice little slave, leave out at least one essential thing in music production against the wishes of a lot of users, make an update every 2-3 years and earn big money with rewire licenses in the meantime?
That would explain, why the first reply in the audio debate is always "get a Rewire Host" that way they earn double once for Reason and once (or twice) for the hosts rewire license.
I don't know if it works that way but that would get them the most out of each user. Is it that lame?

electrofux
  #10  
Old 2007-06-21, 17:24
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madwax madwax is offline
 
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Posts: 209
Re: Reason 4 = tempo, MIDI & CV, maybe Reason 5 = Audio ?

"...exactly the same as the ReBirth Machine Input device that 50% of the users don't know what's it for ;P
but it's a godsend for those using ASIO4ALL Audio IN "hack" (or Hammer)"

nobody uses Rebirth Machine Input because its useless, as you cant save the audio you generate with Rebirth devices - you have to export Rebirth audio and then either REX it or put it in NN XT or -19.

That 303 from Rebirth is sick - I have no idea why the props didnt just include the damn thing in the Reason Rack. thats my #1 wish list, second being Audio In so I can use my beloved Access Virus.

As far as the whole rewire thing is concerned, I dont like to rewire, I dont like other applications - I just like Reason for its workflow, for its solid stability - in the 3 years I've been using Reason, I have yet to have the app crash on me. Cubase, Live and other programs? not so much.

 

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