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  #1  
Old 2010-09-14, 07:23
santamanuela santamanuela is offline
 
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Create "true mono" FX on mixer channels

Hey guys what's up? Just wondering if you could give me a hand here, not sure if it's possible.

I'm working with Reason 5.0. I have a couple of live songs where I only use reason racks for everything (1 rack per song, of course).

I have everything in there, even the audio vocals, with its respective effects, of course. As usual in real life, vocals are using just one channel (mono L channel on the mixer). I have two mics connected to channels 1 and 2, only through the L input of each.

What I do is that I pan the 1st mic on channel 1 all to the left and then the 2nd one on channel 2 all to the right, in order to be able to use just one mixer per both voices. Mixer then is connected to a combinator, and out to external output 1 and 2. So the connection is just a basic regular stereo connection, the difference is that only channel 1 goes to output L and finally through ext output 1; and then channel 2 in the mixer goes out through out R and finally through ext. out 2.

I did this in order to be able to use the same effects for both mics, thinking that I would just have to control them through the mixer's aux channels, and since both mics are panned, they should both be delivered externally completely independently from eachother.

Here's the thing, it didn't happen. Raw connections (no FX) with these linements work perfectly, both channels get independently to my external mixer. When I use the FX (reverbs, delays, whatever), these send signal of each channel through both channels, making my mix no longer independent from eachother. Of course I thought it be a "mono to stereo FX" issue, so I tried disconnecting the R channel of all fx from all aux, didn't work either, still getting stereo signal.

I understand L means mono, and thus anything going in L will go out through both L and R. So I tried pluggin the FX just on its R channel: this time, the audio is canceled (as explained by the diagrams on the back of each fx device).

So the obvious solution for this is to use separate mixers and double all my FX, simply connecting each group to its respective output channel. The problem is, I would have to manage and double the same fx for both vocal channels on all my 20 songs/reason racks. Plus, it also seems a big waste to have to consume double the resources in all those "dummy" FX

So, is there any other solution to this problem? I've tried everything I can think of, even putting separate eq's after the mixer outs, to see if this will make my channels independent again, no luck yet
  #2  
Old 2010-09-14, 18:47
selig's Avatar
selig selig is online now
 
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[this has more to do with the FX than the Mixer]

The FX in Reason are (as much as I can tell) all MONO input, even the reverb. True stereo FX are rare in my experience. If you truly need each vocal to output separately on a single output, you will need mono FX anyway, and since Reason doesn't have any 'dual mono' FX you WILL have to use two FX.

I don't totally understand how your setup is intended to work, but I believe this is the way you will have to work. How often do you need to change the FX (how is it a problem to have to use two FX)?
  #3  
Old 2010-09-15, 03:26
santamanuela santamanuela is offline
 
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both vocal mics, that is channel 1 and 2 are outputted through separate channels out my interface and then each go to separate channels on a real mixer, to be amplified and used live. Reason in this case is just working as a live FX rack for each vocal channel. What I'm trying to do is to have just one mixer managing both vocal channels and the same reverb effect (connected through aux), the only thing that would vary would be the amount of dry/wet that each channel would have.

The problem with having to use the same effect device twice (even if they're identical) instead of just once, considering my case is a live situation, is that first of all: reverb is not the only effect to be used, there are delays, overdrives, and many others, so there's a lot of effects to double; Second: I have 20 separate reason racks managing 20 separate songs, having to double the same effect device for each vocal channel on each of the 20 separate racks is kind of a waste of valuable resources, considering there's a lot more to each rack than just the vocal part, remember, its a live performance.
  #4  
Old 2010-09-15, 13:41
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TreasonLaw TreasonLaw is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by selig View Post
[this has more to do with the FX than the Mixer]

The FX in Reason are (as much as I can tell) all MONO input, even the reverb. True stereo FX are rare in my experience. If you truly need each vocal to output separately on a single output, you will need mono FX anyway, and since Reason doesn't have any 'dual mono' FX you WILL have to use two FX.

I don't totally understand how your setup is intended to work, but I believe this is the way you will have to work. How often do you need to change the FX (how is it a problem to have to use two FX)?
Selig I'm a bit confused here as to what you are referring to as "dual mono"?
The routing diagrams on the back of the effects and their descriptions in the manual indicate that all of the effects ARE "dual-mono" except for the delay and reverbs.
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  #5  
Old 2010-09-15, 18:14
selig's Avatar
selig selig is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TreasonLaw View Post
Selig I'm a bit confused here as to what you are referring to as "dual mono"?
The routing diagrams on the back of the effects and their descriptions in the manual indicate that all of the effects ARE "dual-mono" except for the delay and reverbs.
Sorry for the confusion…

The OP mentioned only delays and reverbs, so I mistakenly only checked those two devices. You are correct that the other FX devices are in fact 'dual mono' - meaning that if you send a track to only the left side (with both inputs connected), you will see output on ONLY the left side. The reverb (both old and new) and the delay are mono in/stereo out.

The RV-7000 is an interesting exception: they call it 'true stereo' but it's NOT dual mono. I don't see the difference between this and the old RV-7 in 'real world' situations. The description in the manual is cryptic and seems self contradictory:

"When you connect the inputs in stereo, each channel in the effect uses the signal information from both inputs. However, the inputs are not summed - the two channels are processed differently."

Doesn't sound clear at all to me - does each channel use the signal information from BOTH inputs (summed to mono), OR are the inputs 'not summed'? My guess is that the REVERB is mono in stereo out, but the wet/dry when set to fully dry will still be stereo (but this is also how the R-7 behaves - hmmm, what's the dif?).

Bottom line, a 'true stereo' reverb in MY book would only output reverb on the channel that it comes in on - if you 'send' some signal to a 'true stereo' reverb and pan that send 75% left, then the reverb 'return' should appear approximately 75% left. No reverb in Reason currently can do this.

Not that it's a deal breaker, as you can easily build a 'dual mono' reverb with a combi. The resources used wouldn't be much more than a dedicated 'dual mono' device.
  #6  
Old 2010-09-15, 23:19
santamanuela santamanuela is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by selig View Post


Bottom line, a 'true stereo' reverb in MY book would only output reverb on the channel that it comes in on - if you 'send' some signal to a 'true stereo' reverb and pan that send 75% left, then the reverb 'return' should appear approximately 75% left. No reverb in Reason currently can do this.
(actually no reverb or delay)

That's exactly my point, as I mentioned it before with both my vocal channels. Panning does nothing among these effect devices, not even if only one of the two outputs (Just L, no R) of the effect device is connected. weird huh? seems like a bug
  #7  
Old 2010-09-16, 18:10
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selig selig is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by santamanuela View Post
(actually no reverb or delay)

That's exactly my point, as I mentioned it before with both my vocal channels. Panning does nothing among these effect devices, not even if only one of the two outputs (Just L, no R) of the effect device is connected. weird huh? seems like a bug
Not a bug, as many hardware reverbs like my old PCM-70s operate in exactly the same way. Which is one reason why I have TWO PCM-70s! And some convolution reverbs have this as a CPU saving option. MOST of the time it's totally inconsequential. Just not for the use you have intended.

Seems like your current option is to use duplicate reverbs and delays, Reason is so CPU friendly that this SHOULDN'T cause much of a problem. Only other option is to go out and buy some hardware reverbs and delays and use them on the main mix, which if nothing else, will make you appreciate just how CPU (and $$$) friendly Reason actually is! ;-)
  #8  
Old 2010-09-22, 06:15
santamanuela santamanuela is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by selig View Post
Not a bug, as many hardware reverbs like my old PCM-70s operate in exactly the same way. Which is one reason why I have TWO PCM-70s! And some convolution reverbs have this as a CPU saving option. MOST of the time it's totally inconsequential. Just not for the use you have intended.

Seems like your current option is to use duplicate reverbs and delays, Reason is so CPU friendly that this SHOULDN'T cause much of a problem. Only other option is to go out and buy some hardware reverbs and delays and use them on the main mix, which if nothing else, will make you appreciate just how CPU (and $$$) friendly Reason actually is! ;-)
Sorry about that, you're totally right, my mistake. I have a Behringer UB2442FX and exactly the same thing happened: stereo signal, even on a panned mono channel connected, when using external effects. No big deal though, Reason is trully CPU friendly, plus I shouldn't have any problems, I have plenty of spare ram left. I ended up making separate mixers for each vocal channel, and applied separate effects to each and it worked out perfectly fine. Thanks a lot for making the issue clear to me.
 

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