Propellerhead Software

Go Back   Propellerhead Forum > Feature Suggestion Forum

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 2011-05-22, 21:41
eXode's Avatar
eXode eXode is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,490
RDD - Reason Device Designer

RDD - Reason Device Designer

Here are my collected suggestions, edited and summarized, regarding a new extension for Reason called the Reason Device Designer, or RDD for short.

The Reason Device Designer is an integrated extension for any one wanting to design and develop their own devices for Reason, it is similar to Reaktor in concept. With this solution, Reason will have it's own plugin system. Propellerhead could release new modules for the Reason Device Designer together with new releases of Reason.

The device designer will be created in such a way that anyone owning Reason can download and/or purchase new devices but obviously only people owning the actual Reason Device Designer can create and edit the devices.

Once a new device plugin is published, it will be able to save it's own patches.

Devices created in the device designer can be locked/protected by the original author. The development environment will have many levels of editing but the core is that it will consist of different modules and ready made graphics.

In the audio path designer the user can build their own instrument with access to modules like oscillators, filters, wavefolders, shapers, envelopes, modulation generators (lfo's) etc.

In the GUI designer there will be a set of graphical items such as the different knobs, sliders and buttons with the same look and feel as the devices already present in Reason. Of course anyone with graphical skills can add their own knobs, slider and buttons, but for those who aren’t artists there would be a nice base library to work with.

On audio module level, the user can choose to edit the characteristics for the different modules. For instance a user can edit the standard LP filter and tweak it's response curve as well as modifying the bandwidth of the resonance and whether the filter should self oscillate or not, or if it should be selectable by the user. You could make your own filter that is the biggest, baddest and meanest filter anyone heard.

Oscillators and their waveforms can also be loaded and tweaked in various ways. Is that sawtooth too perfect? Edit the symmetry in the vector based graphical editor and add some noise to make it sound rawer.

Even such a simple thing like envelopes could be edited to have all the different stages with different curves, i.e. log, lin or exp and different response times.

The Reason Device Designer as an extension to Reason would be an unstoppable force!

I will continue to add to this post as I come up with more details.

Last edited by eXode; 2011-10-31 at 08:49.
  #2  
Old 2011-05-22, 22:26
GeorgeFeb GeorgeFeb is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,264
Extremly, awesome, great! It's like Max for Reason, but more simple! =)

Anyway nice suggestion, but Props do not do that, why?

Cos about 10 years they add new devices by small portions & when new devices or very little changes comes released - users getting trilled! =)

Awesome policy to doing business ever!

P.S. If they implement RDD, they lose ability to do their business like they do!

Last edited by GeorgeFeb; 2011-05-22 at 22:41.
  #3  
Old 2011-05-22, 23:03
dioxide's Avatar
dioxide dioxide is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,290
Interesting idea although I'm not sure I'd like to see it happen or not. I've steered clear of Reaktor and SynthMaker as my actual music making productivity is likely to take a big hit if I start messing with this stuff. Of course I wouldn't have to start building stuff myself if I didn't want to. Personally I use Reason in much less of a modular way than I did a few years back, mainly because you had to in order to get around limitations that were more of an issue at that point.

I think it's interesting to see that most DAWs are heading towards the same point from different directions. Live started out as audio only and has eventually now included not just MIDI devices but also Max allowing you to do things that you would have needed Reaktor for. Other DAWs have added more built in devices and Reason added audio features. So it looks like everyone will end up offering something similar in a few years.

One question I would have is this. If you build a platform where users can design and build their own devices and are therefore able to sell them, does that affect how a user feels about buying the host software itself? Does it devalue the host itself and would users expect existing VSTs to be ported to the ReDD format? If these devices are therefore available cross-DAW then it means there is no real loyalty to the host itself as you can easily move all your sounds and sequences from one DAW to another. I'm not really sure why some hosts allow OMF output, import makes sense if you want new users, but not export.

I'd probably be happy to see this be introduced as long as the patches themselves cannot be locked by Refill makers and remain fully editable by any user. Although you then have the problem of how to motivate the device designers themselves if they cannot fully protect their work. Then again this is pretty much where we are with Refills anyway. As I say my main concern is that people will be less willing to pay for the host software. How do Reaktor and Kontakt fair when it comes to expecting users to pay for both the underlying infrastructure and individual instruments?
  #4  
Old 2011-05-22, 23:45
plaamook's Avatar
plaamook plaamook is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,225
oh man... don't even tease me with this stuff!!!
i won't be able to sleep for weeks now!!!

there would be no better way, from a user point of view, to move forward IMHO.

i DON'T think locking of devices should be allowed.

and i don't think that we need to think about it in terms of 'selling' devices. in the reaktor/max community there is a real feeling of sharing there (though i guess you can buy patches too. never tried) and that would open the whole thing up to a new level.

the only thing is that i suppose props would have to change their business plan a bit. not sure

man, look out world, eh?
  #5  
Old 2011-05-23, 00:12
JiggeryPokery's Avatar
JiggeryPokery JiggeryPokery is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 5,081
Quote:
Originally Posted by dioxide View Post
expecting users to pay for both the underlying infrastructure and individual instruments?
Kontakt is where the money is atm according to my sources, so I guess people don't mind too much. But it's such a different environment to Reason, since it can be used as a VST/AU etc.

"In the audio path designer the user can build his own instrument with access to modules like oscillators, filters, wavefolders, shapers, envelopes, modulation generators (lfo's) etc.

In the GUI designer there will be a set of graphical items such as the different knobs, sliders and buttons with the same look and feel as the devices already present in Reason.

On audio module level the user can choose to edit the characteristics for the different modules. For instance a user can edit the standard LP filter and tweak it's response curve as well as modifying the bandwidth of the resonance and whether the filter should self oscillate or not, or if it should be selectable by the user. You could make your own filter that is the biggest, baddest and meanest filter anyone heard.

Oscillators and their waveforms can also be loaded and tweaked in various ways. Is that sawtooth too perfect? Edit the symmetry in the vector based graphical editor and add some noise to make it sound rawer.

Even such a simple thing like envelopes could be edited to have all the different stages with different curves, i.e. log, lin or exp and different response times.
"

It's like a wet dream, eXode, really it is! It would be unimaginably awesome and truly FTW. My first question is: Would all these RDD items have to be natively implemented within Reason in order for them to work? If so, users will, predicatably and perhaps justifiably, complain they have to buy stuff to access features that the program contains, and they'll ask why those modules couldn't have just be implemented in a SuperThor?

I love the idea of RDD, I really do, but think more about it in recent days I can't see it happening: there would be too few purchasers (basically, those of us who already do ReFill production plus a few newcomers, a few more curious types, and some icon completists) to justify two years of development at the expense of continued progress in R+R. To justify it commercially it would need be a premium product, £200+, which my traditional pessimism still thinks is optimistically low. If it shifted 500 copies it might cover the development cost of two/three programmers full time. I haven't sold 500 copies of Kings of Kong for a tenner No, the only way it would be viable from a Props perspective would be take a license fee for every copy of a device made with RDD that's sold, as they do with ReFills through the PropShop.

Would big hitters like NI or Arturia be that keen on using it to develop for what is essentially a closed system (and in NI's case, a competitor). RDD would have to offer the ability to do some pretty amazing things not currently achievable to tempt them... to be a plugin with the flexibility of a VST essentially, so Arturia could actually put a 2600 or a MiniMoog in the rack. As dioxide notes, at that point people will question why can't they just be able to use VSTs? At least currently there is a valid argument why they can't.

So imo, a device with all these features and flexibility within Reason.... possibly, I could see that happening down the line in Reason 7 or 8, including perhaps the ability to lock the device for ReFill developers. An external product to develop devices for a closed system where all the coding for the devices must already exist in the closed system in order to run the externally developed devices? It's NGH... it'd be quicker and cheaper - and better rewarded - just to implement a VST wrapper and make Record (for better or more likely, worse) a ReWire Master.
__________________
www.jiggery-pokery.com
Vintage Keyboard & Guitar ReFills for Reason

Last edited by JiggeryPokery; 2011-05-23 at 00:16.
  #6  
Old 2011-05-23, 00:41
MattiasHG's Avatar
MattiasHG MattiasHG is offline
Propellerhead
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,429
Honestly I'd just like more devices, preferably a lot of half-rack stuff and expansions to the combinator architecture. This would still just add to R+R, give everyone the tools. I don't really see the point of a stand-alone "device designer" when the modular rack metafor could just be improved upon and allow most things but the most niche "modular synth" approaches. Tweaking waveforms and filters could just as well be added to a new Reason synth, like a half-rack osc device.

2 cents
__________________
  #7  
Old 2011-05-23, 08:45
eXode's Avatar
eXode eXode is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,490
@ Dioxide:

I don't think that the selling part would be an issue because it wouldn't be any different than Refills in my mind. It would take Refills to a new level because you could sell not only patches but devices with the Refills.

It becomes abstract here because we are talking about two different types of patches but to try and be as clear as possible: Personally I want the actual devices projects in RDD to be protected as an option. However the new device itself should be fully editable in Reason with saving/loading patches etc like a full fledged instrument.

In my vision the end user wouldn't need to pay extra for the RDD just to be able to use these plugins (well in some means they would have to pay for an upgrade that enables this plugin functionality, but other than that), only users wanting to develop their own instrument and effect devices for Reason would have to pay for that capability but anyone can use the finished device.

And to comment plamook, I would also prefer to view it as selling patches rather than devices as such. It would open up for a whole new refill market imho, but I think that the option to be able to protect the core contents in some way is important. An alternative would be to do the protection similar to how published reason songs work.

To sum up, it wouldn't be any stranger for a user to pay for a Refill with new devices (and patches for those devices) than it is to pay for a regular refill with patches for the already existing devices.
  #8  
Old 2011-05-23, 08:57
eXode's Avatar
eXode eXode is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,490
@ JiggeryPokery:

I would like to compare this solution somewhat with either Max for Live or even Fruity Loops (FL Studio) that come with a Synth Maker option. One could also make parallels to Synth Edit.

Anyway, to try and answer your question: I imagine that Reason would require an upgrade to accomodate the support for RDD plugins, however in my mind all the relevant RDD items should be contained in the actual RDD plugin. I know that the problem with this would ultimately require that you include the plugin with a refill or similar but for me, a possibility would be to include RDD plugins in your song contain settings, just like how refill based samples now are contained in Reason 5.

I think that the biggest argument for the RDD when compared to regular VST plugins is that props would keep control over stability because they are still the driving force behind the actual core development.

Also I just want to comment that I'm not debating for or aganist VST in this post. There will always be two sides to every coin!
  #9  
Old 2011-05-23, 09:15
eXode's Avatar
eXode eXode is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,490
@ MattiasHG:

I'm sorry to sound a bit harsh but if you don't see the point of a stand-alone device designer you haven't looked hard enough. One of the RDD's many points would be that you could create those modular half-rack units yourself...

Your idea is not bad, but only if we get "modular polyphony" in Reason. I would just be frustrated with monophonic modular half-racks in the long run and what you suggest is just limiting in a annoying way (for me). The great thing about software is that you can overcome limits in hardware for a fraction of the cost. To get polyphony with your suggestion and doing it the way CV/GATE works today you would need to do a device that takes incoming MIDI (i.e. up to 8 voices) and distribute the voices across up to 8 CV and GATE outputs.

The problem with this solution is that you would have to repeat each halfrack setup up to 8 times to get 8 voice polyphony. And to have all those parameters and just 4 buttons / 4 knobs in the combinator would make it even more frustrating because you would only be able to control a fraction of the setup.

In my humble opinion, this is just making it more difficult for the user when you could get similar results in the Reason Device Designer and not be confined to a set panel/user interface.

Last edited by eXode; 2011-05-23 at 10:37.
  #10  
Old 2011-05-23, 10:30
JiggeryPokery's Avatar
JiggeryPokery JiggeryPokery is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 5,081
Quote:
Originally Posted by eXode View Post

Also I just want to comment that I'm not debating for or aganist VST in this post. There will always be two sides to every coin!
No, no, debate against! There's only one side to that coin!

Edit: re my post above, to clarify, I think it's a brilliant proposal, and combined with elements of Flotzilla's proposal, well, it needs to happen. My only real issue is that I remain to be convinced a whole new external program is the way forward. But I've had my mind changed many times before!

Still, I'd like to see a dedicated Spectre-type synth first in R6, alongside a powerful effects rack, whether they be single devices or a modular setup.
__________________
www.jiggery-pokery.com
Vintage Keyboard & Guitar ReFills for Reason

Last edited by JiggeryPokery; 2011-05-23 at 10:51.
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pull those straps tight one more time. Plasma Phead User Forum (read only) 26 2011-08-16 06:28
My Reason 3 workflow and general thoughts about Reason 4 Andrew108 General Forum (read only) 7 2007-02-12 10:17
A possible future reason device (the future) Boi555soul Phead User Forum (read only) 0 2005-12-24 02:30


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 14:56.